Thursday, 17th November, 2016

Order, Members! Let us begin with the Statements to be sought.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, last week you directed that there was a response to be issued today by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands and Natural Resources. It was concerning the Northern Collector Tunnel Water Project in Murang'a County.

Order, Sen. Njoroge! Do you have a copy of the Order Paper? You cannot, in the first instance, just abuse the process. Check Statement

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45 (2) (b) to seek for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries regarding the supply of subsidized fertilizers to the farmers by the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) .

In the Statement, the chairperson should state:

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Statement sought is similar to the one that was sought by Sen. Karaba. I have the answer to that Statement today. I am ready to issue it. If there will be any supplementary information that will be sought, I shall provide.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is new to me. The Chairperson should seek to proceed with Sen. Karaba’s Statement and respond to mine as soon as possible. They may not be the same, word for word.

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! The Chairperson has more information than you. I agree completely with him; let him proceed with the Statement previously sought by Sen. Karaba. It is up to you to see what has been covered in what you are looking for. If there is anything else, you can raise it either in terms of supplementary, interrogation or a separate Statement. Let us go to Statements to be issued starting with Statement (a) .

Members, let us be alert because we have many statements today and we must dispose as many as possible. So, I will not allow frivolous points of order or lengthy statements.

Let us have the Chairman of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, Sen. Madzayo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could I be bypassed and then come back later?

Why did you not just say so at the very beginning?

I was not aware of it.

Order, Senator! That is why we have Order Papers to make you aware.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am guided.

We will get back to you.

Let us go to Statement (b) to be issued by the Chair of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek your indulgence because I have given a copy to be made for Sen. Karaba so that when I read the response, he can follow.

Let us have Statement (c) .

The Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, unfortunately, I do not have this Statement. I made all the effort to get it yesterday but according to them, they have not yet received the request. However, they told me that it will be available next week.

What have they not received? Is it the request?

Yes.

So, when are they promising to deliver?

Any time next week. I am sure it will be available by Thursday next week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the Chairman may have forgotten something because he gave me a copy of the response last week. It may not be adequate and maybe they want to obtain more information.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I confused it with the statement that was requested by Sen. Muthama regarding somebody who was arrested at the border. I have the statement. So, if he gives me a copy, I will give a response.

Order, Senators. We are under Item 2 on Page 1,197 of your Order Paper which is Statements to be issued. So, when I tell you (c) please, read

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I gave the response to this Statement earlier and part of it yesterday. I have also consulted my colleague, Sen. M. Kajwang. The only outstanding issue was whether the money that was supposed to be paid has been paid or not. The answer is that the money must have been paid to the Treasury since the Office of the President does not handle money that is paid to the Government. Maybe he could

A seek another statement from the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC) to find out whether that money was received by the Treasury.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you ruled on this yesterday and I appreciate that the detailed statement was read yesterday. I have looked at the Statement and it is correct that the only part that is not satisfactory is on whether Safaricom paid the fees for the 4G frequency licence.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I concur and I will direct my question to the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget because it can confirm whether these monies were received in the Consolidated Fund.

Senator, how do you propose to do so?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I propose to generate another statement request that is specific to the proceeds of the 4G licence.

Sen. Haji, this matter would have rested yesterday if you had read it. You postponed it for one day in order to postpone for more days.

Yes, because earlier, I dealt with it twice and I felt I was being taken round, not by you but by those who wanted the statement.

We will also skip Statements (g) because the Member is not there, (h) because I cannot see both the Chair and the Member, (i) because the Member is not here, (j) because the Member is present but the Chair is not and (k) because the Chair is present but the Member is not.

We will have Statement (l) issued because both the Chair and the Member are present.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, our efforts to get this Statement today failed but we are still pursuing the Ministry so that we can issue it next week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard the Chairperson. However, I am surprised because this Statement was very urgent to the extent that the Speaker directed that it be issued today. This touches on the life of the Governor of Bomet County who has been missing in the county for over two weeks. It is essential that the Chairperson properly briefs this House on his whereabouts.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the whereabouts of Governor Ruto is public knowledge because he went to South Africa. If we asked for that information from the Cabinet Secretary, he will say the same thing.

I agree with him that this Statement was supposed to be issued today but it is not available. However, we will continue pursuing them until we get the Statement.

By when?

Wednesday next week.

So ordered.

We will skip Statement (m) because I do not see both the Chair and the Member.

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Do we have anybody to issue Statement (n)? We will go through the Statements for a second and last chance. We will begin with Statement (a) which is to be issued by the Chair of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is in response to the questions raised by my colleague, Sen. Kanainza. In her questions, she asked the following. What is the role of the Music Copyright Society of Kenya (MCSK) , Performers Rights Society of Kenya (PRISK) and Kenya Association of Music Producers (KAMP) ? Who is entitled to collect levies? There are various questions that follow.

With your permission, let me respond.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe the statements are supposed to be signed by the Cabinet Secretary (CS) in charge. However, the Statement that has just

A been read by the Chairperson has been signed by the acting Executive Director of the KCB. Is it in order?

Another concern is that it is not clear how musicians benefit directly from these levies. Just the other day, one of the musicians in Kenya died. However, this fund could not help her at all.

Another clarification I would like to seek is on the use of police when executing -- -

Order, Senator! Just go straight to the clarification.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my clarification is on how police officers behave when they accompany MCSK officers in visiting businesses. It is improper because we have other levies that business people pay to MCSK officers when they are not accompanied by police officers. So, the answer given by the Chairperson is unsatisfactory.

About the tariffs, I sought this question more than four months ago. However, the Chairperson is talking about tariffs being harmonised. It would be important that we have a standard tariff depending on the type of business that somebody conducts.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson said that police officers who accompany the officials ---

Order, Senator! Seek clarification. Do not repeat what the Chairperson has said. We were all present and we heard him.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you. I am guided. It is not correct that these police officers do not arrest on the spot. I have had a real life situation where copyright enforcers looking for software licence---

Order, Senator! What is your clarification?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just challenging the assertion that the police do not arrest because I have been in that situation. Could the Chairperson confirm that it is, indeed, true that the police do not arbitrarily arrest young people in matatus, buses and offices?

Secondly---

Of all the things that you said, that is the only thing that you needed to say because that is the clarification.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you. Brevity is a difficult game for politicians. I will attempt to work within your framework.

There are three organisations here. For the sake of brevity, I will just call them MCSK, KAMP and PRISK. A matatu operator is expected to get licenses from these three bodies.

What is your clarification again on the three bodies?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what effort is the Government making to reduce these barriers on young people commonly known as matatu operators? It is not fair to subject them to licensing from these three different bodies.

So, do you still consider yourself a politician or not? You basically know it. It is only that you are just deciding to go a longer route. You always conclude better. Just start with that conclusion.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, are these three bodies registered under the law? If they are, why are policemen required if the law stipulates what they are supposed to do? It is waste of money---

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Order! I was about to grade you “A plus.” That is the kind of clarification you should be seeking during Statements Hour; very precise.

Proceed Chair.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the questions are quite informative. I request to be given a week to be in a position to respond. I need to confirm whether or not the police arrest them on site. I will require about seven days to respond, maybe on Thursday next week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as to whether they are registered under the law, I cannot answer immediately because I did not have the instructions. I have to seek for those instructions before I respond effectively. Otherwise, I stand guided.

Order, Chair! Where do you get the instructions from?

From the Ministry.

Your instructions are from the Members.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The clarifications that I sought are so concise that if he searched on Google or obtained from the Cabinet Secretary, Tuesday, should be good enough for him to respond to these queries. I think the period of time he is proposing is too long.

Order, Chair. I am equally concerned about the rate at which you want to do the business of this House; we will take eternity for nothing. Every time a supplementary statement or a clarification is sought, you need more time. Some things are basic. We invest in committees and the first assignment of the committee is to look at the constitutional, institutional and legal framework of your mandate. Some of those things should be obvious, especially with the kind of expertise you have. You are an advocate of the High Court, a former Judge of the High Court and a Senator of the Republic of Kenya.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am obliged.

I will give you the last chance. The response should come on Tuesday next week. Also, you should be ready to respond to any clarifications sought on that day. Every time a Statement is sought, you should imagine other relevant possibilities and matters.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand guided.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am guided by your direction. As he brings the response to those other clarifications, he should give us the statistics of those who have benefited from this revenue that is injected to the upcoming---

Order, Chair! The Member is talking to you.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request the Chair to also give us statistics of those who have benefited from the revenue injected to support the upcoming artists.

Order, Sen. Kanainza. You also need to be clearer. Which statistics are you referring to?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, he should, at least, mention a number; that was part of my question. He has indicated here that most of the monies are spent on administrative matters as well as supporting its younger members. He should give us the list because recently---

Are you talking about the number of beneficiaries?

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I believe that is clear. The Ministry should give the standard tariffs to be charged, because the people doing matatu---

Order! That is sufficient.

Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a response to a Statement sought by Sen. Karaba of Kirinyaga County regarding the preparedness for the planting season and supply of fertilizers and farm inputs to farmers.

The first question was on the measures that the Government is taking to ensure there is adequate supply of seeds and fertilizers to farmers throughout the country. The Ministry of Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries has put in place measures to ensure adequate seed and fertilizers supply and distribution to farmers. The formal supply for most seeds is less than 30 per cent, except maize whose supply is about 62 per cent. Maize is grown by most farmers in Kenya as the main staple food crop. Maize seed production by Kenya Seed Company is currently 35,000 metric tonnes, which is expected to be increased to 60, 000 metric tonnes by 2018. Currently, the seed companies in the country have 48, 000 metric tonnes of maize seed, against an annual demand of 35, 000 metric tonnes, which is adequate for farmers to plant during the 2016 short rains and 2017 long rains.

There is enough seed to meet farmers requirements to plant 492, 515 hectares of other cereals; wheat, sorghum and millet, and 1.69 million hectares of pulses. Over 80 per cent of seeds of pulses and drought tolerant crops such as beans, sorghum and millet are acquired from the informal system.

With regard to fertilizers supply and distribution, the Ministry is implementing a national subsidy fertilizer program, which is part of the three tier fertilizer cost reduction strategy, a flagship project of the Kenya Vision 2030, that is, bulk procurement, blending and manufacturing. The subsidy fertilizer program is largely meant for open market prices stabilization, while assisting smallholder farmers to access affordable fertilizer.

The quantities of fertilizers procured are based on the budgetary allocation, consideration of what counties indicate as their annual requirements, national recommendation but subsidies fertilizers procured annually be 20 to 30 per cent of the national requirement. That is about 650, 000 metric tonnes. This is critical in ensuring that the private sector fertilizer dealers also remain vibrant and in business.

You can skip that and go to the next bullet.

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Mr. Speaker, Sir, fertilizer distribution to counties is mainly through the elaborate National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) depot network and cooperative societies. Fertilizer allocation to various counties is based on intensity of agricultural activities, county uptake trends and seasonality at the time of the distribution.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in preparation for the 2016 short rains planting season, the Ministry is distributing 17, 100 metric tonnes of various types of fertilizer. The breakdown is indicated in Table 1 as follows:-

Kilogram bags REGIONS/NCPB DEPOT BLEND NPK 25:5:5 NPK 22:6:12 (Blend 5) Kelphos Single Superphosphate (SSP), 19% P2O5 Granular) TOTAL NAIROBI/EASTERN REGION

Sub-Total 14,020 SOUTH/RIFT REGION

A Bomet Elburgon Enosean Fort Tenan Kabarnet Kedowa EldamaRavine Kericho Kilgoris Kipkelion Kirindoni Maralal Marigat Mulot Naivasha Nakuru Narok Ndanai Nyahururu Sotik Subukia Kipipiri OlKalau Solai Olenguruone

A

A

A Machakos

Kithimani 1, 680 3, 360 Machakos

2, 240 1, 120 3, 920 7, 840 Machakos

Tala 1, 680 1, 120 4, 480 Machakos

Email 1, 120 1, 680 Machakos

Konza 1, 680 - 2, 800 Makueni

2, 240 1, 120 - 3, 920 Makueni

Kibwezi 2, 240 1, 120 - 3, 360 Makueni

Emali - Meru

2, 240 1, 120 2, 800 6, 720 Meru

Maua 2, 240 - Migori

- 2, 800 Migori

Awendo - 1, 120 1, 680 Migori

Kehancha 2, 240 - 2, 240 Mombasa

1, 680 1, 120 - 3, 360 Murang’a

Maragua 1, 680 1, 120 1, 680 4, 480 8, 960 Murang’a

Sagana 2, 240 1, 120 1, 680 1, 120 6, 160 Nairobi

GCP 1, 120 2, 240 - 3, 920 Nakuru

Subukia - 1, 120 Nakuru

Solai - 1, 120 1, 680 Nakuru

Olenguruone 2, 240 - 2, 800 Narok

2, 240 1, 120 1, 680 5, 600 Narok

Ndanai - 1, 160 Nyamira

Nyasiongo 2, 240 1, 120 4, 480 Nyandarua

Kipipiri - 1, 120 1, 680 Nyandarua

OlKalaou - 1, 120 1, 680 Nyeri

Kiganjo 2, 240 1, 120 1, 520 1, 120 6, 000 Nyeri

Karatina 2, 240 3, 040 Siaya

Bondo 1, 680 1, 120 - 3, 360 Siaya

Yala 2, 240 1, 120 - 3, 920 Taita Taveta

Voi 1, 120 - 1, 680 Uasin Gishu

Ziwa 1, 680 - 1, 680 Uasin Gishu

Eldoret 1, 680 - 2, 240 Uasin Gishu

Kipkaren Salient 2, 120 - 2, 120 Uasin Gishu

Ainabkoi - Uasin Gishu

Kipkaren River - 1, 120 - 1, 680 Vihiga

Chavakali - 1, 120 - 1, 680 Vihiga

Hamisi -

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In addition to the above quantities, a tender for 195,500 metric tonnes has been announced whose closing date is 18th November, 2016, with deliveries in mid January 2017 for the long rains. The specifics of the types of fertilizer are also given in Table 2 below.

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Order, Chairperson. You may now go to the last two bullets.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, these seeds are sorghum, millet, beans, green grams, pigeon peas, cowpeas, dolichos, open pollinated maize, cassavas and sweet potatoes.

This year, the programme plans to distribute 597 metric tonnes of assorted drought tolerant seeds to 25 counties in different phases of drought, to reach 91 sub- counties targeting over 100,000 small-scale farmers in ASALs. It is expected that approximately 86,675 acres will be planted for food and nutrition security at a cost of Kshs143,222,320. Counties have been advised to distribute the seed in areas with irrigation facilities for better impact. The Ministry is also undertaking sensitization of farmers on La Niña phenomenon and appropriate actions spearheaded by counties.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is a good answer, but I am not convinced whether what the Chairperson has said is the correct position on the ground. He has said that a lot has been distributed this year, including the release of drought- tolerant seeds to 25 counties, which is not true. He has also said that the Ministry has given out fertilizer to various depots, including Sagana. That is not true because I was there recently and there was no fertilizer.

Order, Sen. Karaba.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, a lot of fertilizer has not been delivered. I wonder whether the Chairperson is convinced that what he has stated is true on the ground. If it was true, we would not be complaining. We have not had fertilizer in the depots, which is leading to shortage of food in various places. Why can we not have fertilizer supplied before the planting season? Why should the fertilizer be distributed tomorrow when planting has already started? We need topdressing fertilizer. NPK17:17:17 fertilizer is for coffee and not maize. Why are the farmers given the wrong fertilizer?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Karaba has covered most of what I had prepared as a statement earlier. I want the Chairperson to address the following: During the short rains, planting in most areas starts in September and harvesting is done around December and January. This Statement was signed yesterday 16th November, 2016 and it claims that the Ministry is distributing 17,000 metric tonnes of various fertilizers. Is the country prepared for the food shortage that will occur? Why is the Ministry distributing fertilizer two-and-a-half months after the planting season?

With regard to the long rains, the Chairperson has stated that a tender for 195,000 metric tonnes---

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! Seek your clarification.

During the short rains, planting in most areas starts in September and harvesting is done around December and January. This Statement was signed yesterday 16th November, 2016 and it claims that the Ministry is distributing 17,000 metric tonnes of various fertilizers. Is the country prepared for the food shortage that will occur? Why is the Ministry distributing fertilizer two-and-a-half months after the planting season? With regard to the long rains, the Chairperson has stated that a tender for 195,000 metric tonnes---

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! Seek your clarification.

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Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, those are two clarifications. One is about delivery in April or January. The other one is on importation of food.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to seek two clarifications. I come from a county that depends on agriculture not only for food, but also as a source of income. One, what has the Ministry done to deal with the cartels who buy fertilizer in bulk from the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) and later sell it to retailers, and the retailers in turn sell it to the farmers at a higher price, when NCPB runs short of fertilizer? Two, all of us understand that agriculture is a devolved function---

Order, Senator! Seek your clarification. You are explaining to us that you are from an agricultural county; who does not know where you come from?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to proceed. My first clarification on the cartels who buy fertilizer is clear---

Order, Senator! You are being repetitive. Seek your second clarification?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, what have the counties done in terms of storage and distribution of fertilizer to farmers who are in need?

Very well.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I gave a response to the effect that the Ministry is distributing fertilizer. In the annexes that I did not read several counties, including Kirinyaga County are covered. It is indicated that fertilizer is being distributed to farmers for the short rains in that area.

Order, Senator. I also have a copy of your response, but I do not see the counties.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in Annex 2.

Is annex 2 the same as Table 2 on page 4?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is Annex 1, which shows the depots and Annex 2, which shows the areas where the fertilizer is distributed.

Looking at Annex 1 on the depots, I believe Sagana is in Kirinyaga County, or at least supplies fertilizer to Kirinyaga. That is the nearest depot to farmers in Kirinyaga, particularly those planting rice.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Chairman in order to imagine that I do not come from Sagana yet Sagana is in Kirinyaga? I was there yesterday and there was not a single bag of fertilizer. What is he trying to contest? He is saying that there is fertilizer, while I am saying that there is no fertilizer? Who is correct?

Order, Senator. The Chair is just trying to confirm that Sagana is a depot supplying your county. The contestation is whether what is given here is what obtains on the ground.

Proceed, Sen. Ndiema.

A has been moved from Sagana to another place. This is because the term used here is that it is being distributed.

The tender is closing tomorrow for fertilizer to be available in January. That is a Statement which is an undertaking by the Ministry. We can only wait until that time to question why the fertilizer has not arrived on the promised date. We cannot anticipate delay.

A has been moved from Sagana to another place. This is because the term used here is that it is being distributed.

The tender is closing tomorrow for fertilizer to be available in January. That is a Statement which is an undertaking by the Ministry. We can only wait until that time to question why the fertilizer has not arrived on the promised date. We cannot anticipate delay.

Order, Chair. Remember that clarification was sought by Senator (Prof.) Lonyangapuo,and he had a basis for doing so since there is a history. This is because last year, you made the same promise for January only to deliver in April. So, all the House and the country require is a reassurance that this time round, it will be delivered as promised in January. That could not have been lost to the Chair.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, we undertake to keep a keen eye on this promise to ensure that it is implemented as promised. If there will be any delay, certainly, as a Senate Committee, we shall take the necessary steps.

On the issue of cartels, it is true that there have been cases where some cartels or unscrupulous businessmen have fraudulently purported to take maize to the farmers only to divert it. This is common knowledge although it is not rampant. The Ministry in this response has indicated that this time - I hope they will do so- farmers are being identified and registered to ensure that it is only farmers who benefit from the subsidized fertilizer and that cartels are not given opportunity to profit where they do not deserve.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can confirm to the Chairperson that yesterday, I called the Eldoret, Bungoma and Kakamega depots to inquire whether the fertilizer was there, and it was not. Sen. Karaba is right because it is not even in the areas where we normally have it. Could the Chairperson be compelled to request the Cabinet Secretary (CS) and the Ministry officials to come and address this issue because as a House, we must prepare to have food for our people next year?

Sen. Melly.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the issue of Sen.Karaba, I think he should clarify whether there is already fertilizer at the depots. For example, Eldoret, which is the biggest depot has no fertilizer as we talk. Could he confirm whether the same cartels, which I am referring to, have already diverted the same fertilizer since it is not in the depots?

Sen. Hassan.

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It is important as we move forward, that some of these clarities are sought as per your order in your previous points, that the Committee is told to extract the HANSARD and go back to verify some of these areas.

Order, Sen. Kembi-Gitura. You may wish to recognize that Sen. Murkomen is your leader in this House.

Order, Sen. Kembi-Gitura. You may wish to recognize that Sen. Murkomen is your leader in this House.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, but he is supposed to lead from the front.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the issue raised on---

Proceed Sen. Kembi-Gitura.

Proceed Sen. Kembi-Gitura.

A passed by the time the fertilizer comes. The top dressing fertilizer is not going to be there. I think it is time we revised the Standing Orders on how we want questions tackled and dealt with in the House.

A passed by the time the fertilizer comes. The top dressing fertilizer is not going to be there. I think it is time we revised the Standing Orders on how we want questions tackled and dealt with in the House.

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Who do you want to inform, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?

He has finished and the Floor was not his. Sen. Chelule.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am concerned that it is not only about the supply of fertilizer but also about the quality. I want to ride on the statement by Sen. Karaba. The quality of fertilizer we receive in different stations in this country----

Order, Senator! It is statement hour and it is time for clarifications. It is in fact, the second tier. Yes, Sen. Cheruiyot!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to seek a clarification on the answer that has been given about the distribution of fertilizer. I have seen parts of Kericho County; Fort Tenan and Kipkelion. I wanted to report that I was there last weekend and this problem is persistent. We do not have those fertilizer and farmers are complaining.

Sen. Kanainza!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with the Deputy Speaker that these questions should be answered at the Committee stage. The Chair is also affected. I know Trans Nzoia is the basket of our Kenyan food but unfortunately, they do not have fertilizer. Kakamega depot also does not have. My concern is that why is the national Government is holding on this function yet we know agriculture is a devolved function?

What is it, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo?

One more, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my earlier statement, I had wanted to know the total amount of money that had been set aside during this financial year to purchase fertilizer so that we know the true figure.

A including national National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) and local depots to give accurate information and give to the House and the Committee.

So, having observed that, let the Chair and the Committee go back. We want a factual response on Tuesday because this is about issues of bread and butter for the country. Every time an issue of this nature comes, I expect the Committees to take the extra diligence to make sure they get the correct information because we cannot afford to get it wrong. It means food insecurity, lack of food, failure to confront the current drought and famine that the country is facing. It is so important that we have no choice but to deliver on this.

A including national National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) and local depots to give accurate information and give to the House and the Committee.

So, having observed that, let the Chair and the Committee go back. We want a factual response on Tuesday because this is about issues of bread and butter for the country. Every time an issue of this nature comes, I expect the Committees to take the extra diligence to make sure they get the correct information because we cannot afford to get it wrong. It means food insecurity, lack of food, failure to confront the current drought and famine that the country is facing. It is so important that we have no choice but to deliver on this.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While I have given a response to the answers that were sought, what happens is that when supplementary questions arise, that is the time we realize there are certain things we need to check. There was no reason prior to anticipate that what is stated here is not correct. I tend to agree with the idea that where there are issues that arise like these, we invite the Cabinet Secretary to the Committee and all Members in this House come to interrogate. As Members of Committees and Senators, we are incapacitated. We have asked for money to enable us oversight, create systems in counties to check on depots and so forth but the National Assembly has deliberately frustrated our work and refused us money to oversight. That is the reason we cannot do some of these things.

Nevertheless, we shall comply with your directive and I invite those Senators to bring queries. We are going to ask the Cabinet Secretary next week to come and respond. We shall inform the House. Thank you.

What is it, Sen. Karaba?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am trying to agree with what the Chairman has said. I want to caution him that the rains have already started. Farmers have planted without fertilizers and there is no top dressing fertilizers in the depots. So, we are already disadvantaged as far as fertilizers are concerned. Even after he consults the Cabinet Secretary, the decision of the Ministry will belated in the sense that farmers have already experienced the problems in planting and top dressing. Therefore, we are expecting poor crop this year. That is adding insult to the injury. We are talking about drought and that is shortage of food and you are talking of intended shortage of food in the potential arable farms or counties which can produce enough food but they do not have fertilizer. Who do you blame? The Ministry of Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries should pull up their socks. I hope they will do it.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to very sincerely apologise to you, the House and my colleague, Sen. Obure, for having misunderstood the Statement that I was supposed to give which I am now ready to do so. I do not want to read all the questions, but I will go straight to the answer to save time.

On 6th October 2016 at about 6.00 p.m., Administration Police Officers from Kwekwe Response Team were clearing hawkers and boda boda riders who had obstructed free flow of traffic at Daraja Mbili Market. However, one of boda boda riders attempted to wrestle a gun from one of the officers. Unfortunately, the rifle accidentally discharged ammunition as the officer was struggling with the rider resulting to the shooting of two women; Irene Kerubo aged 36 years and Emily Osoro aged 21 years. Irene Kerubo was shot in the abdomen and rushed to Kisii Teaching and Referral Hospital where she succumbed to the injuries while undergoing treatment. Ms. Edina was shot in the chest and died on the spot. The accidental discharge sparked riots and demonstrations by the hawkers and boda boda riders.

The following motor vehicles had their window screens damaged during the riots:-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Chairman for this response. However, I want to point out that my request on the steps that the Government is taking to ensure that justice is served to the families of the deceased has not been responded to.

Further, I want to clarify that the information the Chairman has been providing about the rifle accidentally discharging ammunition may not be correct. My understanding from those who were at the site was that this information is not quite accurate. I will ask him to go into this a little further. The Daraja Mbili Market is actually a disaster in waiting. We have already lost these two businesswomen because of the conflict between road users and the traders. What is the Kenya National Highway

A Authority (KeNHA) doing to improve the road network around Daraja Mbili Market? We have been told about designs and the plans to do so. What have they done to avert this disaster in waiting?

The Chairman has also talked about the county government having identified a piece of land. Where is this land? What is the status of the proposed market presumably to be built by the county government? When is the completion date for this new market?

A Authority (KeNHA) doing to improve the road network around Daraja Mbili Market? We have been told about designs and the plans to do so. What have they done to avert this disaster in waiting?

The Chairman has also talked about the county government having identified a piece of land. Where is this land? What is the status of the proposed market presumably to be built by the county government? When is the completion date for this new market?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want clarity from the Chairman on how you can investigate a matter where you already formed an opinion. What he gave is already an opinion of what happened and you tell us that you are investigating the matter further. So, how do you investigate a matter that an opinion has already been formed, in fact, at an almost an official level?

Secondly, in the circumstances of shootings by police officers, it is required that there is an inquest. Is there any inquest that has been instituted since that shooting to establish the circumstances of the shooting? Thirdly, there is a matter that has been reported in the media that these police officers are attached to the escorts of the Deputy President. Is it true? If it is true, how then does it become Kwekwe?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My question is closely related to that of my brother Hassan. I want to ask the Chairman to tell us exactly how fast this matter can be handled. I always realise when it involves police, officers you are asking the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) who are essentially a unit in the police force and a department to the investigations. Many a times we do not get the actual truth. This is a matter that has caught the public attention and it is up to them to do so the earliest. Can the Chairman tell us how soon this matter will be concluded with a view to getting justice for the families of those affected?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, now that it is confirmed that Edna Osoro and Irene Kerubo died as a result of bullets shot from the police, can the Chairman, Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations confirm that the Government will compensate their families for this loss of life or will pay the cost incurred both in hospitalisation and mortuary expenses and feeding mourners that you have in funeral expenses?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a disturbance from my neighbour here.

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! I thought it was mutual. Proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this issue by the Chairperson, Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations is very interesting. If you listen to the Statement very well, there was a scuffle.

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! Ask for clarification.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am asking for clarification. There was no riot whatsoever that happened. How can there be a scuffle when there was no riot? So, we need to know clearly---

A

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it should be clear that we do not respond the way the police want us by covering up. We should state what exactly happened. We know the victims were businesspeople and there was no harm intended. Therefore, the scuffle was not to the extent that the police wanted to remove a gun. So, the Statement was not clear enough.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The question of justice for parents of the deceased persons is valid. However, since the matter is still under investigation, I will try to find out from the Cabinet Secretary of Interior and Coordination of National Government whether they have any provision. If it is discovered that the police were at fault by killing these people, I will inform the House how long we will take to compensate their families.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Obure’s assertion that this might not have been an accidental discharge is very difficult for me to tell because I am not on the ground and I was not a witness to what happened. If I ask theCabinet Secretary, I am sure that he will still tell me that the matter is under investigation. Sen. Obure asked where the new market is and when it will be completed. Those are valid questions which I will endeavor to get an answer.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Hassan has asked if it is possible for one to investigate on something when they have already formed an opinion. According to the Statement, there was a struggle and the gun discharged. The Department of Criminal Investigations (CID) is investigating the matter to find the police officer whose gun discharged and led to the death of the victims. After that, action will be taken against the concerned officer. I do agree that he could have secured the gun by putting it in safety mode before it discharged itself. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to provide a better Statement. I am sure the CID will take the matter to court for inquest when they finish the investigations. I will seek more clarification from the Cabinet Secretary on whether the escort of the Deputy President was involved in the shooting. We will hopefully get an answer to that problem as soon as investigations are completed.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo said that the victims were not demonstrating yet what has been said is even more serious because they are said to have attempted to grab the gun and that is how they met their fate.

As to the question on whether the Government will compensate the families of the victims, I hope that the parents will go to court to seek justice if they were killed innocently.

Chairman, when do we get it?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this takes me back to the probing which Sen. Ndiema read into. Getting the Statement is a big hurdle for us and to get supplementary Statement may also be very difficult. To be honest, I will require about two weeks to come and say something in the House.

So ordered.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this response is supposed to have been provided by the Chairperson of the Committee, but I will request that you indulge me to respond to it in his absence.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this response is supposed to have been provided by the Chairperson of the Committee, but I will request that you indulge me to respond to it in his absence.

Proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are a number of requests made by Sen. Njoroge. In the first one, he wanted to know when the project was launched. The masterplan and feasibility study for developing new water resources for Nairobi City was launched for implementation on 18th September, 2012. The masterplan included implementation of the Northern Collector Tunnel---

What is it, Sen. Njoroge?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The last time we were here, the Chairperson answered all the questions which Sen. Obure is trying to answer. However, there were some clarifications that were sought by Members and some documents were to be presented today. My concern is that what Sen. Obure is saying is not what we were waiting for today. This is because we were waiting for those documents---

I do recall that the Statement had actually been submitted but there were some outstanding documentation. Thank you, Sen. Njoroge.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologize. I was out of town.We had a meeting this morning and I was given the impression that this was due to be responded to. I will look at the HANSARD and find out what was required and what was to be provided.We will report back on Tuesday.

The Statement should be placed in the Order Paper on Tuesday. Check on the HANSARD so as to narrow down to the essentials.

What is it, Sen. Njoroge? I thought we have satisfied your request.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will be out of the country next week. If allowed, I would wish to be present when those documents are being presented. It was my prayer that the documents be presented either on 28th or 29th November, 2016.

Order Members, the Statement will appear on the Order Paper on 28th November, 2016. That has been resolved.

Sen. Bule is not in the House, so that Statement is also dropped.

Sen. Obure, you need to find out if you have been given a responsibility.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will find out the status of this one and report on Tuesday.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will find out the status of this one and report on Tuesday.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request for a more definite commitment from the Committee. This is a matter of life and death for the people who border Lake Victoria.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not in a position to respond. I attempted to get a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They have not responded but we are still pursuing it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not in a position to respond. I attempted to get a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They have not responded but we are still pursuing it.

The statement to appear on the Order Paper next Thursday.

Statement (l) has already been disposed. Statement (m) is dropped.

Before we allow the Senate Majority Leader – I hope he is as active as his deputy, I have a communication to make.

Hon. Senators, let me acknowledge the presence, in both the Speaker’s and Public Gallery, this afternoon, of the visiting students from South Eastern Kenya University and Kenyatta University. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I send a warm welcome to them, and on your behalf and on my own behalf, wish them a fruitful visit.

I thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me one minute to join you in welcoming our students. In the university, I was a student leader in the Christian Union and student politics. It gives me great pleasure to see young people here. I remember that in my first year, just the other day in 2001, I sat in the Gallery. I think I saw you.

Order, Senator! This is 2016; 2001 cannot be the other day.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think I saw you and Sen. (Prof.) Anyang'- Nyong'o among others in the Chamber. I remember dreaming as a young man that if God gives me chance to serve the country, I will have an opportunity to sit inside the Chamber. Little did I know that in less than 15 years, I will be here. So, those are the leaders of not so long future. Therefore, I welcome them. It is a great opportunity to learn from the “Upper” House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I join you in thanking the students for choosing to come to the Senate to see how we work. I also remind them that I know their Vice Chancellor, Prof. Munuvi personally. He is a very good administrator. When the university was being opened, I played a role. I was the Permanent Secretary (PS) then. This university is constructed right in the bush. We need to remember people like the late hon. Mulu Mutisya. He set aside thousands of acres of land for the university. That is the right place for these students to study. Whenever you are there, remember that we are aware. The Dean of the School of Agriculture is from my neighbourhood in Turkana. We expect you to learn a lot and build our country Kenya.

Order, Senator! Proceed, Sen. Karaba.

A When we press them to accept our demand, they do not respond. That is why I am getting late to say that I am happy to have heard and seen the students from South Eastern University and Kenyatta University. Let them learn.

As the Chairperson of the Committee on Education, I also used to be a student leader in the University of Nairobi. It is good that they can see what student leaders can be once they qualify to be leaders like us. I welcome them.

A When we press them to accept our demand, they do not respond. That is why I am getting late to say that I am happy to have heard and seen the students from South Eastern University and Kenyatta University. Let them learn.

As the Chairperson of the Committee on Education, I also used to be a student leader in the University of Nairobi. It is good that they can see what student leaders can be once they qualify to be leaders like us. I welcome them.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join you in welcoming the students from our universities. I urge them to register as voters and participate in the elections in 2017. If they wish to be nominated to represent the youth as I do today, they must be members of a political party. I request them to join the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) .

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it pleases us to see young people get interested in the activities of Parliament, especially so, youths at the university level. You do not have to have qualified in Senate, parliamentary affairs or political science to be a Member of Parliament (MP) . Therefore, all of you are eligible. All you have to do is love your country, be patriotic and show leadership.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also wish to congratulate the students. For them to reach where they are, they have worked very hard. I urge you to continue working very hard, especially the ladies. There is a lot of work to be done in politics. We welcome you aboard. We urge you to mentor many other young people so that we can take these leadership positions and move the country forward in the right direction.

A

What is your point of Order, Sen. Obure?

What is your point of Order, Sen. Obure?

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Senate Majority Leader is making every effort to mobilize Members to come and deal with these pending Bills. However, Thursday next week, which he proposes is even more difficult. I suggest Wednesday. A lot of people move out to the counties on Thursdays.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no problem with Wednesdays. The problem is simple. We are unable to come and vote. If majority of our colleagues prefer Wednesday, I have no problem. I plead with us to finish with these Bills. We have exactly two weeks to the end of the Fourth Session.

Sen. Karaba!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to the matter which has been raised by the then Majority Leader, I had proposed Wednesday. My Committee is travelling to Turkana on Thursday and we will depart from the airport at around 3.00 p.m. Therefore, it is difficult for us to be here on Thursday afternoon. Wednesday is the best day.

Secondly, if the Whips are not helping so much, the leadership of the Senate can use the chairpersons of various Committees to bring their Members here. On Wednesday, I will come with all my Members. By the way, they are always here when there is such crucial business.

A

Not exactly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Well, I am sure you are trying to look for a solution, that is good.

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki what is your point of order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, mine is to comment on the issue of Thursday and Wednesday. About a year ago, we had actually picked and resolved that we shall reserve Wednesday for whipping for the purpose of voting. Therefore, there is nothing new on the issue of voting on Wednesday.

It is also good to appreciate what Sen. Karaba is saying as the Chairperson of a committee. If that route can work, the chairpersons can also whip over and above whatever the official whip is doing, it could be worth it. That way, we can have one day which if we have an agenda, we can come and do our core business.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, more often than not, it is the Senate leadership that actually reduces the quorum of voting in this House. Would I, therefore, be in order to demand through you that the Senate Majority Leader makes sure that the team he leads is in the House on Wednesday?

Sen. (Dr.) Machage, you are not clear. You talked about leadership then you talk about the team that he leads. I am not quite clear about what you are saying. Kindly clarify.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the CORD leadership is not in the House. When we talk about leadership, that includes the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader representing both sides of the House. I hope I am understood.

Senate Majority Leader, you have heard what he has said.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with my friend, Sen. Karaba, that Wednesdays have been reserved for voting. If the leadership of the House from both sides ensures that this decision is adhered to, we will have no problem with that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir may I have your indulgence to thank you for acknowledging the students from the Southern Kenya University and Kenyatta University (KU) , Kitui Campus. They are my constituents.

Order, Sen. Musila!

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I asked for your indulgence. I knew you had done it earlier and wanted to go on record that I had---

Order, Sen. Musila! I cannot refuse to grant you indulgence even if it means reversing the Order Paper. Therefore, let us finish with this issue and then I will allow you to acknowledge the students.

Much obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.!

A

Members should not come here because it is either a Jubilee coalition or a CORD coalition affair. These matters that we are voting for concern counties. If we do not vote on the constitutional amendment Bill on the Equalization Fund, we will have abdicated our responsibilities in protecting counties; one of those responsibilities.

A

Members should not come here because it is either a Jubilee coalition or a CORD coalition affair. These matters that we are voting for concern counties. If we do not vote on the constitutional amendment Bill on the Equalization Fund, we will have abdicated our responsibilities in protecting counties; one of those responsibilities.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to inform the Senate Majority Leader that since this is teamwork, he could delegate one person from his office to ensure that they call each and every person. Even as we are seated here, I can see Sen. Muthama is trying to whip people to come. He should delegate a person in his office to make sure that they inform all the Members.

First and foremost, it may not be possible next week or within the next two weeks if most people are already out of the country. The first this is to find out if everybody is around and then we can take drastic measures. Some of us had to forfeit or come back early to prosecute our Bills. Therefore, other people should also sacrifice.

Fine, before the Senate Leader Majority Leader responds, I will give Sen. Musila two minutes to acknowledge the students.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir for the opportunity. I came a little bit late and I apologize. I join my colleagues here in acknowledging the presence of the 25 students from the South Eastern Kenya University which is based in Kitui and also those from the Kenyatta University, Kitui Campus. These students are doing a great job in ensuring that the environment in that area is protected. I was there only two days ago and I found that they are putting a lot of effort to work in harmony with the community where the campuses are situated.

Therefore, I congratulate them for coming to see what we do here. They have already been to the National Assembly. I urge them to continue with the good work in keeping good relations with the communities around where they are based.

I thank you.

Senate Majority Leader do you have a response to make to the several issues raised?

A

Thank you, Senate Majority Leader. It is so ordered. So, the whipping will be for voting on Wednesday at 3.00 p.m.

Hon. Senators, this has a bearing on what you have just been debating. We do not have numbers to vote yet we have several divisions. So, I will invoke the Standing Orders to stand down Order Nos. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 on the Order Paper. These are Bills that we have debated and some are in the Committee of the Whole but we do not have numbers to go to division. So, I will stand down all the Orders that I have mentioned.

Shall we now go to the next Order? Second Reading

I notice that Sen. Kagwe is not here. Therefore, we shall also defer Order No.18. Next Order Second Reading

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to move the Bill.

I beg to move that The Impeachment Procedure Bill (Senate Bill No.8 of 2016) be now read Senate a Second Time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in our general elections, we have six elective positions; that is the President, Senator, Member of the National Assembly representing a constituency, women representative, governor, and Member of the County Assembly (MCA) . We actually have eight elective positions and not six because in the Constitution, deputy governor is elected at the same time as the governor and the deputy president is also elected at the same time as the president. The Constitution provides that these persons are elected to hold office in those positions for five years. Four out of those positions can be removed from office half way their term. A president is elected to serve for five years but his or her term can be stopped half way through impeachment. Among the reasons that can lead to impeachment is poor health.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the President also appoints Cabinet Secretaries and Principal Secretaries. They are not appointed for five years but they can also be removed half way their tenure through impeachment by the National Assembly. In the counties, the governor appoints County Executive Committee (CEC) members and also county officers in charge of various departments who can also be removed from office by the county assembly.

A

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Bill before the House is about the procedure for impeachment of persons who are elected. So far, this House has conducted seven impeachment processes; five for governors and two for deputy governors. Out of the seven, the Senate found grounds for impeachment on one. The one for Makueni never found its way here for debate. The only one who was impeached was the Governor for Embu but his impeachment never got to conclusion because of judicial processes. Therefore, out of all the seven impeachment processes that have been undertaken by the Senate, none of them has succeeded in removing those officers from office. The reasons why the processes were not concluded in one way or the other is because county assemblies did not have enough grounds for impeachment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have studied all the six impeachment proceedings which have been done by the Senate to conclusion and I have looked at all the issues raised. I have looked at the reasons for impeachment raised by county assemblies and those given for and against during the Senate proceedings. I have also looked at the pros and cons on which way to go, why this happened and merits and demerits. I have tried my level best to put together a Bill which will guide the procedure of removing any of these officials by impeachment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the processes at county assemblies are quite lengthy and there is ambiguity because they are all based on the Standing Orders of individual county assemblies. Therefore, there is no harmony in them. If you pick a few examples, you will find that there is no proper procedure where charges against a governor or any official are clearly spelt out. Sometimes they are but sometimes they are not.

We have had cases where a governor appears before us and start complaining that they were not given a charge sheet to know what the accusations are all about. There have also been cases where some governors say that they were not given adequate notice. We do not have a law which is clear-cut on what and what not is adequate notice because at the moment, they rely on Standing Orders which quite often are not quite clear. I have taken my time to go through a good number. I have done a good sampling of them and they are at variance by and large.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is also the issue as to whether or not the accused person is given an opportunity to answer, address or respond to issues at the county assembly level. All the focus is on the governor and the deputy governor because these are the ones we have dealt with so far. The Bill is with regard to all the six positions where somebody can be removed from office by impeachment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was one governor who appeared before the Senate for an impeachment process and claimed that he was not given an opportunity to be represented

before the assembly by an advocate. The Constitution accords every Kenyan either a governor or any other person an opportunity to be represented by an advocate. It generally provides that one should not be denied such an opportunity. However, it is not specific with regard to the impeachment. I thought it is only fair to address that issue.

Another aspect is with regard to flimsy charges. When those charges come before the Senate, though substantiated, sometimes Senators think they are not enough ground to remove the governor from office. So, there is the issue of addressing the cause for impeachment, not because the governor, president or officer is not popular or has not

A done his work properly, but because he or she has violated the Constitution or some law. For example, in the case of a removal of a governor, Article 181(1)(a) of the Constitution says:-

“A county governor may be removed from office on any of the following grounds-

A done his work properly, but because he or she has violated the Constitution or some law. For example, in the case of a removal of a governor, Article 181(1)(a) of the Constitution says:-

“A county governor may be removed from office on any of the following grounds-

A governors and their deputies should follow, it is important that we revisit the processes and see whether they are of any help to the Senate, so that we can go by them.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, much as we support this Bill, it is important to find out the relationship with the same people who are supposed to be impeached by this House. Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki talked about the impeachment of Cabinet Secretaries and yet, we are not the Members who approved them into office. We need to come up with an amendment so that we are included in the vetting process. Before they come for impeachment, they will have passed through our vetting process.

It is important to reinforce the Office of the Speaker. The Senators are supposed to be reinforced either by legislation or Parliament, so that they can visit some of these areas that have issues. For example, if a governor is cited to have misused funds, the Senator of the county should get to know whether or not that is true before the case is taken before the county assembly. The Senator is supposed to visit projects in the county a number of times. There should be an office equipped with computers and skilled manpower. This will enable the Senator to detect some of the issues before they come to this august House.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much as I support what Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki is proposing, he should also support the Senate. What is the Senate supposed to do before the impeachment process starts? We expect the Senator of the affected county to find out the true position. That can only be done if the Senator is empowered by law and financially. That will get the Senator closer to the process of impeachment. If we do not do that, some of the governors will escape the dragnet. The power to impeach governors should emanate from this House and the National Assembly.

In order to impeach a governor, there should be hard facts. We cannot get those facts in three or four days; it should be a long process. The Senator of the affected county should also be empowered and consulted, so that he or she can find out the truth. Since oversight is one of the most important functions of the Senate, it is important that we understand the processes, as articulated in this Bill, so that we are in a position to judge the governor, the deputy governor or anyone else who is brought to the Senate for impeachment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is important that we are empowered, so that we can understand what happens in the counties. The Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) should also understand the impeachment process. In some counties, the governors sponsor goons to disrupt meetings that intend to impeach them. To the detriment of the county assembly, the Senate will not get the right information. The Senate should provide a good atmosphere to the county assemblies.

They should be told right from the beginning that any party which flouts the rules of the game will be blamed. That way, sanity will prevail in the county assemblies. We will get clear facts as opposed to cases where MCAs concoct information. Some impeachments are intended to complicate the politics of a county. They are also intended to punish the governors and the deputy governors for being out of favour with one another. We must understand these things because they might be brought here through impunity.

The process in this Bill is good. We need to come up with more processes and findings, so that we can be guided how to proceed with impeachments. This House

A should not impeach people for the sake of it. We should not impeach people because of influence from anybody. Impeachment process should be a final court in the parliamentary process where the Senate sits and decides. It should be clear that when the Senate impeaches somebody, no other force should dispute the findings. This is because we have three tiers; the Judiciary, Legislature and the Executive. The ruling of the Senate is quasi judicial. We should, therefore, not be taken into a circus, where an impeached person will move from the Senate to the High Court, the Court of Appeal and then escape the dragnet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there should be a clause in this Bill which states that whatever is discussed in the Senate is final. Therefore, people should understand that the Senate is the final destiny in matters of impeachment. Some of them think that nothing will happen to them when they are brought before the Senate, because nothing has happened before. Whenever the Senate impeaches a governor, that decision should be final and no other body should interfere with it. That way, people will start to take the Senate seriously.

We should also be given facilitation to do oversight. This will ensure that we have vehicles to visit projects and equipped offices in the counties. This Bill should address this so that when the impeachment process starts, the Senator will be the first person to appear because they have the mandate to oversight the county. The Senator should provide enough evidence in the impeachment process.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to second and thank Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki for moving this Bill.

A should not impeach people for the sake of it. We should not impeach people because of influence from anybody. Impeachment process should be a final court in the parliamentary process where the Senate sits and decides. It should be clear that when the Senate impeaches somebody, no other force should dispute the findings. This is because we have three tiers; the Judiciary, Legislature and the Executive. The ruling of the Senate is quasi judicial. We should, therefore, not be taken into a circus, where an impeached person will move from the Senate to the High Court, the Court of Appeal and then escape the dragnet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there should be a clause in this Bill which states that whatever is discussed in the Senate is final. Therefore, people should understand that the Senate is the final destiny in matters of impeachment. Some of them think that nothing will happen to them when they are brought before the Senate, because nothing has happened before. Whenever the Senate impeaches a governor, that decision should be final and no other body should interfere with it. That way, people will start to take the Senate seriously.

We should also be given facilitation to do oversight. This will ensure that we have vehicles to visit projects and equipped offices in the counties. This Bill should address this so that when the impeachment process starts, the Senator will be the first person to appear because they have the mandate to oversight the county. The Senator should provide enough evidence in the impeachment process.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to second and thank Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki for moving this Bill.

A

When I heard about this Bill coming up, I thought it was going to be about impeachment of governors only. However, as I read it, I realized that it includes the impeachment of the President and the Deputy President, Cabinet Secretary (CS), governor, deputy governor and the county executive committee. It gives all the various levels and the various procedures that should be used at these levels.

It also gives the provision of how the information should be circulated right from the time when a Member, whether of the National Assembly or County Assembly decides the threshold that an impeachment has to have; whether in this case it is a third of the membership. Immediately, this is followed through by a form that is on page 9 of this Bill, which gives a particular schedule. This is important so that we know who these members are, because most of the time, we have not had something that has been streamlined. That is very important and key.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in any country where there is a democracy and people are elected to various positions, there is an understanding about how they are going to be removed from office either through constitutional means by breach, gross misconduct and others that have been stipulated within the Constitution. So, at no one time can an impeachment take place. It is a statement that one has been given a position but has not served as was expected.

It is not something completely out of the world but has been practiced for a long time. It was first used in the British political system to impeach Baron Latimer who was impeached in the late 14thCentury against various things that he was accused of such as oppression, selling off the castle, taking bribes from various people and failing to keep to the constitutional dispensation that was expected. In association with Richard Lyonshe had obtained money from The Crown for the payment of fictitious loans. This was only a precedent which is likely to happen in various institutions and jurisdictions. Impeachment is going to be with us for a very long time. The sooner we put out our impeachment procedures very clearly, the better.

This Bill would, therefore, have not come at a better time. It lays the ground for such impeachments and proposes the need for public participation within these impeachments so that people can come forward and stipulate specific reasons for those impeachments.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the specificity of this Bill, particularly on the procedure for removal of the President and the Deputy President, this Bill anchors its argument on Article 145 of the Constitution and looks at the grounds which are well stipulated in the clause, for example, violation of the Constitution or any other law where there are serious reasons for believing that the president has committed a crime under national or international law, among others.

In Clause 4, it clearly suggests how the Motion should come up that it shall be submitted, for example, to the speaker. It goes on to give the timing for the procedure from the time that the Motion is taken up to its conclusion in a very timely manner.

It also gives provision for the right to appear which is very key and we have been told this in our various committees especially in the special committees so that they can be given a chance and a specific right to be heard.

In Part 3, the procedure for the removal of the CS is very well stipulated. In Clause 9, again, the specific grounds have been clearly outlined and the number of people

A needed to support such a Motion. A quarter of all the Members of the National Assembly may propose a Motion requiring the President to dismiss a CS. I was in a conversation about two or three days ago and people were just hypothetically talking about the performance of the Cabinet Secretaries and in this regard, one person in that argument was talking about CS Matiang’i and the efforts he has been making in the education sector. Other people were asking: “How about all the other Cabinet Secretaries? How many can we name as having been very successful and what are their outputs?

These discussions are very healthy and there is absolutely nothing to make anybody feel that they should not be discussed and criticize them. You are there in public office for exactly that. It is about performance. When you are in an office, we expect a certain level of performance and if we do not see it, it is possible for somebody to put a Motion that you need to be impeached. This is because there are around 45 million Kenyans in this country and somebody else can take up that position and do their job very well. The provision is given with that nature of understanding that somebody has been given a job to perform and if they cannot, then the opportunity for impeachment comes in handy especially this section that gives the procedure for the removal of a CS is very innovative and to help us quickly acquire our outputs.

Maybe over time, when you look at such a Bill where such stringency has been put in place, it will help us to move away especially from the issues of impeachment from county assembly members because they feel disenfranchised or that there is a particular issue that has not been addressed, and that the best way to do it is through an impeachment Motion. It is very important even for county assembly members, to state what is exactly wrong before an impeachment process or procedure might be engaged in needs to be stipulated and people must be educated over and over again, so that charges are not what others might call frivolous, personalized or a person not being arbitrarily happy with another person.

This Bill anchors this and I think it was when Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki was moving this Bill from the level of public participation. Some of these issues are going to be canvassed more and more so that we end up with a clear provision.

I am also going to approach this as an issue especially for matters that have come to the Senate as we have. It is very interesting that we have always had a special committee, but at the last one, we had a Committee of the Whole going through the impeachment process, so that we can continue to raise the levels of impeachment in this Senate.

This is because I remember at the beginning there was an argument which I think was further perpetrated by the Judiciary who felt they were saving the counties by discouraging impeachments, while not having understood the role of the Senate especially when it came to impeachment. This is becauseof the role of the Senate as the protector of counties. We should find out whether there has been fraudulent use of resources. Impeaching a governor suggests a process that will give a warning and good precedence to governors. If they continue that way, they will find themselves out of office.

I think if this Senate had been successful in impeaching one governor, maybe the level of corruption, discourse and sometimes disorganization that we see within county

A governments might not have been there. That was the dream of the writers of this Constitution when they put a powerful Senate to execute this mandate. Unfortunately, through the interaction with the Judiciary, it has not gone the way we had planned it.Once this is entrenched within this format, it will help us in future to resolve those issues and move to the next level.

As a right path, the Bill continues to give various positions including the one on page No.86 on the procedure for removal of the county executive committee indicating issues like incompetence, abuse of office, gross violation of the Constitution and others. These are key, well stipulated and very important.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you give reference to page No. 93, it gives provisions for the removal of the member of the executive committee. This is a typo but it gives a misleading impression. When you look at (a), (b), (c), (d) (e), (f) and (g) is part of (e). Somebody has put (e) (f) and (g) at a place where there is a sentence. If you look at (g) where we start with physical and mental incapacity, in the next line, member incapable of performing is still part of that sentence. That needs to be corrected as this Bill continues to be processed. This is just a question of typo. Once that is done, that should make it flow better.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill because it will bring clarity and organization that we need in matters of impeachment. I hope the second Senate will successfully impeach governors who have to be impeached. I pray that the power of the Senate to do that will be exercised. I pray that through that, county governments will take the issue of accountability of recourses seriously and something that another institution has the power to remove and make it possible for them to perform their roles. If they do not, there will be consequences that will be put in place.

With those few remarks, I beg support.

A governments might not have been there. That was the dream of the writers of this Constitution when they put a powerful Senate to execute this mandate. Unfortunately, through the interaction with the Judiciary, it has not gone the way we had planned it.Once this is entrenched within this format, it will help us in future to resolve those issues and move to the next level.

As a right path, the Bill continues to give various positions including the one on page No.86 on the procedure for removal of the county executive committee indicating issues like incompetence, abuse of office, gross violation of the Constitution and others. These are key, well stipulated and very important.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you give reference to page No. 93, it gives provisions for the removal of the member of the executive committee. This is a typo but it gives a misleading impression. When you look at (a), (b), (c), (d) (e), (f) and (g) is part of (e). Somebody has put (e) (f) and (g) at a place where there is a sentence. If you look at (g) where we start with physical and mental incapacity, in the next line, member incapable of performing is still part of that sentence. That needs to be corrected as this Bill continues to be processed. This is just a question of typo. Once that is done, that should make it flow better.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill because it will bring clarity and organization that we need in matters of impeachment. I hope the second Senate will successfully impeach governors who have to be impeached. I pray that the power of the Senate to do that will be exercised. I pray that through that, county governments will take the issue of accountability of recourses seriously and something that another institution has the power to remove and make it possible for them to perform their roles. If they do not, there will be consequences that will be put in place.

With those few remarks, I beg support.

Thank you. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.!

A procedure. He said the procedure was wrong. We have added another arm into impeachment process called the court. In all cases of Governor Wambora, Governor Wa Iria, Deputy Governor Kiala and Governor Kibwana, the court has been involved yet it is not part of the impeachment process. That is the same problem that Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki is trying to solve through this Bill. We had a similar problem that we attempted to amend in the Select Committee of this House on the question of time. You cannot have a Wambora situation in an impeachment. It is a travesty; it is an injustice to the people of that county because the court has given a prolonged injunction.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Elections Law, there is a time limit on an election petition. There should be a time limit for an impeachment process. So, Governor Kibwana and Governor Wambora are court governors because they have been impeached by the county assemblies. So, this law makes a lot of sense so that we can have a process.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in Kakamega, the court passed something that has led to a lot of pain to the counties that there is no process for impeachment of an executive. The contradiction is that you can vet that executive but the court says when he does not perform his duties, you cannot impeach him. This is a contradiction. This law fortunately tries to solve this problem so that we do not have that mischief in the next Senate. I am happy to say that there are several Senators who are here and want to be governors. It is good they participate in this. They should know the sort of blade that is coming at them the minute they become governors.

An

Is that a threat”

An

Is that a threat”

It is not a threat but I am giving you polite and free advice that this is going to come to you. Look at it from the perspective that you will be the one who will be the first to be impeached the day you are going to reject corruption, the day you are going to change the way people do things, the day you are going to pay listening allowance for people to clap for you; you will come to the Senate on an impeachment of something that does not make sense. Just for the sake of it, somebody will make mileage out it. Therefore, it is important that as Senators leave this House to go and join county politics, they should know which side the blade is going to come at them. When they employ county executive members who are not qualified or who they allow to steal, they will know that this is going to cut.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Court of Appeal made a very strange finding which came to us during the time we were impeaching Governor Nderitu Gachagua.

What is your point of order, Sen. Sang?

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. in order to give a veiled threat though appearing to be advising Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’- Nyong’o, the incoming Governor of Kisumu County, but in a subtle way give a veiled threat and give ideas that the many potential incoming Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) out there that when they are not given listening allowances, the right thing to do, would be to prove this blade and visit Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o with this kind of impeachment? Do you not think that it is a bit misleading and trying to raise the anticipation of some of those MCAs to do this?

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The potential MCAs who are listening to Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.. You know Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. is a senior legal mind and a respected Senator.

I think Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. is perfectly in order. He is raising a position as he sees it. It is a matter of argument. I know you are going to seek the Floor, and you can correct that position if you do not think it is correct. It is a matter of debate.

Proceed, Senator.

A for representation.” That way, maybe, I will get a job when, for example, Gov. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o is impeached.

Nonetheless, that opening like in the Fair Administrative Action Act which gives a provision for administration action and the appearance of an advocate, should be made clear so that it is not left to the discretion of the speakers to determine whether you need representation or not. The Fair Administrative Action Act under Article 47 means you are supposed to be afforded every reasonable access and facility whether it is an advocate, a solicitor or Queen’s Counsel for those who please. That is what is called fair process. So, maybe then, we should be a little clear on it.

On court proceedings and timelines, I am happy that you have found it fit. I am happy that we are repealing the County Governments Act. Sen. Murkomen should have been here because he participated in the drafting of the County Governments Act. It left a lot of things hanging and a lot of assumptions. However, in Section 33 of the County Governments Act, we have found many loopholes, what in law we call casus omissus. It is that casus omissus that is this Bill is trying to fill. Then repeal the law and remove the impeachment of the governor and his deputy and the county executive from the County Governments Act and set up a separate Bill.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, lastly, I am not persuaded and neither is the Committee of Legal Affairs, why we should have the impeachment of the President and the Deputy President in this Bill. We are of the view - we could be are wrong - but we thought we might advise that we separate the executive part of it so that we concentrate on matters concerning counties in the first instance. We should deal with the question of the Governor, Deputy governor and the County Executive. We should leave the President and the Deputy President at a separate level and set up different methods of doing it.

First, you cannot just lump the President and the Deputy President with the County Executive Members. That is a little untidy. Maybe we would be persuaded otherwise, in future, but for now we thought we are right to have the Bill in its current format on the impeachment of the government officials. However, strictly speaking in terms of our mandate, we leave the Deputy President and the President separately. We could handle it maybe in terms of the threshold separately. We do not want the threshold mixed up because an impeachment of a President and the Deputy President is actually a very serious issue.

What is the importance of this Bill and what are we dealing with? I forgot I should have come with the notes on the impeachment of President Bill Clinton, the husband of Hillary Clinton, where they said, “Impeachment is both political and legal.” So, you are trying to balance both. At some point, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, we have sometimes legal issues. However, in most cases, the impeachment of governors and deputy governors here has been very political. That is the reason why we have been criticized heavily because we have attempted to lean politically - think politically correct - but at the same time, appear legal and in both cases it has ended up looking like oil and water. We cannot mix the two, although they have said that both are necessary.

If we are to tame corruption – Sen. (Dr.) Zani is right – we should have impeached one governor to go home. That could have been a lesson to others. I hope that we are not strengthening this so that the Senators who are here are then impeached in a strong process that we have ourselves done. It is like the famous words in Kiswahili of

A sharpening a razor blade or putting water on your head, so that you prepare yourself for quick shaving.

With those few remarks, I support.

A for representation.” That way, maybe, I will get a job when, for example, Gov. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o is impeached.

Nonetheless, that opening like in the Fair Administrative Action Act which gives a provision for administration action and the appearance of an advocate, should be made clear so that it is not left to the discretion of the speakers to determine whether you need representation or not. The Fair Administrative Action Act under Article 47 means you are supposed to be afforded every reasonable access and facility whether it is an advocate, a solicitor or Queen’s Counsel for those who please. That is what is called fair process. So, maybe then, we should be a little clear on it.

On court proceedings and timelines, I am happy that you have found it fit. I am happy that we are repealing the County Governments Act. Sen. Murkomen should have been here because he participated in the drafting of the County Governments Act. It left a lot of things hanging and a lot of assumptions. However, in Section 33 of the County Governments Act, we have found many loopholes, what in law we call casus omissus. It is that casus omissus that is this Bill is trying to fill. Then repeal the law and remove the impeachment of the governor and his deputy and the county executive from the County Governments Act and set up a separate Bill.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, lastly, I am not persuaded and neither is the Committee of Legal Affairs, why we should have the impeachment of the President and the Deputy President in this Bill. We are of the view - we could be are wrong - but we thought we might advise that we separate the executive part of it so that we concentrate on matters concerning counties in the first instance. We should deal with the question of the Governor, Deputy governor and the County Executive. We should leave the President and the Deputy President at a separate level and set up different methods of doing it.

First, you cannot just lump the President and the Deputy President with the County Executive Members. That is a little untidy. Maybe we would be persuaded otherwise, in future, but for now we thought we are right to have the Bill in its current format on the impeachment of the government officials. However, strictly speaking in terms of our mandate, we leave the Deputy President and the President separately. We could handle it maybe in terms of the threshold separately. We do not want the threshold mixed up because an impeachment of a President and the Deputy President is actually a very serious issue.

What is the importance of this Bill and what are we dealing with? I forgot I should have come with the notes on the impeachment of President Bill Clinton, the husband of Hillary Clinton, where they said, “Impeachment is both political and legal.” So, you are trying to balance both. At some point, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, we have sometimes legal issues. However, in most cases, the impeachment of governors and deputy governors here has been very political. That is the reason why we have been criticized heavily because we have attempted to lean politically - think politically correct - but at the same time, appear legal and in both cases it has ended up looking like oil and water. We cannot mix the two, although they have said that both are necessary.

If we are to tame corruption – Sen. (Dr.) Zani is right – we should have impeached one governor to go home. That could have been a lesson to others. I hope that we are not strengthening this so that the Senators who are here are then impeached in a strong process that we have ourselves done. It is like the famous words in Kiswahili of

A sharpening a razor blade or putting water on your head, so that you prepare yourself for quick shaving.

With those few remarks, I support.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thank Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki for bringing this Bill. This Bill comes at a time when we are just about to go out to campaign for political seats in 2017. This is a House that has seen five impeachments that were very interesting and controversial.

Having said that, the most important thing we need to ask ourselves as we go on the final leg of the Senate, indeed, the first Senate under the new dispensation is whether in those impeachments there were things that we were able to learn in terms of political dynamics. The proposal of bringing in the impeachment of the CEC is very critical. In the impeachment of the governor for Nyeri County, the threshold was not met. However, we saw some members of the CEC being dragged to court and jailed.

When a county assembly brings an Impeachment Motion, they always forget the reason why they are impeaching their governor while they are part of those who are supposed to be building that process. That is the challenge that the national Government is facing when we say that the President is corrupt yet it is the officers who are involved in corrupt practices. The Senator for Nyandarua is trying to help us that when a governor is corrupt and then blames his officers, he should take responsibility.

You will find that many of his officers have been charged yet he is still around blaming them.When you follow up on the matter, you get to realize that everything goes back to his office. The Judge who was hearing the case of Mr. Kiamba said that nobody has a right to ask Mr. Kiamba where he got Kshs1billion yet he knows very well that Kiamba earns a salary of Kshs85,000. Those are some of the things the Senate can heal. When this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, we do not have to run to the court to remove someone like Mr. Kiamba. That will save the county governments from an officer who is full of arrogance, pride and more importantly, the impunity of knowing that nobody can touch him.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there have been impeachments of President Andrew Johnson in 1868 and that of President Bill Clinton of the United States of America (USA) . If you look at the procedures of those impeachments, you will realize that they were purely based on issues of governance. I hope that we shall one day get there as a country. In our country, most of our impeachments are so politicized yet we know that there are issues of governance that must be dealt with. The governors know that they can divide the Members of the County Assembly (MCA’s) . The sad thing is that if you find a united county assembly, it means that the governor has difficulty working with the MCA’s.

I heard today that the Machakos County MCA’s want to impeach the Governor but I know very well he will divide them into two and he will notbe impeached. It is important for us to ensure that aSenator can influence an impeachment of a governor or the Chief Executive Officer when you feel that he or she is not doing the right thing for the county and you are able to substantiate. That provision should be provided in our law.

We can also use the same law to help the President when it comes to dealing with corrupt Cabinet Secretaries and the Permanent Secretaries.This will help us remove them from office when we know that money is being embezzled instead of having them play

A on us and give us some stories in the media. That is the best that we can do for our country. I want to believe that Kenyans will agree with me when I say that the previous Ministers were more responsible.

They were politicians and had to be very careful of what they didbecause they had a name to protect.Secondly, they were voted into office hence they knew that they could be removedfrom office if they failed to perform. The challenge that we are having right now is due to the fact that the current Cabinet Secretaries feel that they have no obligation to anyone. That is why one feels so frustrated when you hear them answer some questions to a point where you do not even know how to support them. Therefore, an Impeachment Procedural Bill to remove them from office is one of the best.

I support Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr’ssentiments that we need to rethink of the impeachment of the President and that of the DeputyPresident. This is because there is a more elaborate law that is provided for in the Constitution regarding the same. The law can be applied when we get to serious issues like those that we saw in Brazil and other places.

I want to thank Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki for this Bill and I hope that the National Assembly will support it. I hope that we can finalize it before we go on recess which starts on the 1st December, 2016. This is one of those Bills that I would want us to pass before we go in for the next election because it can guide the courts.

The management of the governance process has been one of the challenges that we have faced in our country. There has been a problem in this area. There is even a case on the same thing in today’s newspaper. We need to have laws that will ensure that we do not have such headlines. This is because failure in governance shows that Parliament has failed the people because we are the ones who created these institutions.

As Senators, we should process all the things that we do in all the Committees so as to make sure thatwe do not jeopardize the whole process of getting justice to Kenyans.When we are serious in our job, we should present a good report to the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) that should then be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). That report should be so good to a point that the judge does not need to stay with a case for more than three months without judgment. Let us not bring in an Impeachment Procedural Bill that does not bring in the fruits that we thought it will bring or does not change the scenario.

I wish those who are vying for the governor’s position well. I believe they have learnt the lessons and will be better governors. I also hope that they will not find dry coffers. Can you imagine what would happen if they are brought here for impeachment on the issues that the last governor did? That is why it is the duty of this Senate to ensure that we come up with a law that will assist the next governors so as to make sure that they do not carry the baggage of the last governors. The outgoing governor must carry his cross. When anyone leaves office in this country, he believes that the next person is the one to come and carry their burden.It is time for us to have a law that will expect one to handover office transparently. He should also be accountable to his people. He should clearly state the debts, the challenges and the achievements.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Very well.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I congratulate my colleague, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, for always coming up with timeous Bills in Parliament. This is much needed. I hope that the proposals being made for its amendment will be taken in good faith by the Engineer and will incorporate them in that spirit of cooperation.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, just to allay the fears of Sen. Elachi; Article 226 (5) of the Constitution says very clearly that if the holder of a public office, including a political office, directs or approves the use of public funds contrary to the law or instructions, the person is liable for any loss arising from that use and shall make good the loss, whether the person remains the holder of the office or not: Which means that all county executives, governors, speakers and so on who think that if they lose elections or somehow do not vie and come back to the office and they have committed travesties in county governments, they will get away with it. This Article of the Constitution holds them responsible for their actions while in office until God us part. That is until they depart from this mother earth.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, having said that, first, I commend Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki for putting together a process for impeaching officials at the county level but I would like to remind my friend that he left one important office; the impeachment of the assembly speaker. The assembly speaker, unless under the Bill, is a very important official. We have seen cases, particularly in my county, where Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) initiated an impeachment of the speaker. I think the speaker should also be in line to have a proper procedure for his or her impeachment in the county assemblies.

Secondly, I totally agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. that the impeachment of the President and the Deputy President should not be part of this Bill. Let us be filial to our responsibility as stipulated in Article 96 of the Constitution. This House is given the mandate of protecting, defending and promoting the interest of the counties. When it comes to impeachment of the President and the Deputy President, it may easily be challenged by the National Assembly, that, maybe that is not our province.

I am not quite sure but on the other hand, this Senate is allowed to initiate any Bill provided it is not a money Bill. So, we are treading a thin line here. For the sake of neatness, it would be appropriate to leave the President and the Deputy President out of this Bill. You can take it out and bring it as a separate Bill as Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. said. I would prefer this. Even for the procedure of impeaching the President and the Deputy President, there should be a proper procedure grounded in the Constitution along the lines of Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki. If you take them out, you may even amplify the procedure for impeaching the President and the Deputy President much more given the weight of those two offices.

Thirdly, in the impeachment of the county executive members, there should be an opportunity to appeal to the Senate. Why do I say so? Given our experience with the county governments, if a governor finds a very tough finance county executive member who does not want to go along with a governor’s profligate ways, the governor may easily collude with the assembly men, and given the threshold of getting signatures from the assembly, get his county executive impeached by the assembly and that is the end of the process. It is very unfair to the county executive member.

A

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki could think of having a window of opportunity; once the impeachment process is through in the county assembly, the county executive member has the opportunity to bring his case to the Senate within a certain period of time so that it can be reviewed. I say this because justice must not only be done in an impeachment process but must be seen to be done. A process that does not have an appellate opportunity or an opportunity to appeal may undercut the process of dispensing justice rather prematurely.

That is one amendment that Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki could think of, and therefore, introduce that window of opportunity for county executive members who may face this unfortunate process of being impeached; sometimes for good reasons and sometimes it could be for contrived reasons because of conflicts within the county executive.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to reassure the House that I will run for the governorship of Kisumu County, not to put my hand in the public till because at my age, I have already acquired all the material where withal in this mother earth. Acquiring more may perhaps be overloading myself with unnecessary sins that may visit me rather unfairly in the world to come.

So, let me assure the House and my friend, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, that you may not see me being impeached for those reasons, but perhaps for trying to stop those who are reaping the counties of the resources that are needed to serve the people.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support.

Very well. Since we have no other interest---

Sen. (Dr.) G.G. Kariuki, your request is not appearing on my screen but proceed.

A achieved more if the judiciary was not a problem to us. If somebody is accused he is arrested and locked in without regard to the freedom for expression or defence.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Senate, the Judiciary and the Executive should consult each other on these problems. Unfortunately, the Judiciary claims that they are working hand in hand with everybody. If Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki is arrested, for example, I should go there with a lawyer to get him out if I am able to do so. However, the law has been used to subjugate other people and condemn them for nothing, only to regret later.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you again. I decided to raise my hand because my console is not working. God bless you.

A

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we must also understand that there are many loopholes in our Constitution. It is mixed up with political interests. So, it is very hard to see where political interests are and where the law is; even as it is, nothing will stop those in the impeachment process to survive. They have survived. This Constitution was done, not in hurry, but two Members were concerned about it. They sat down and talked about it. Their position was very strong. Those who were in power were not comfortable with it.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Opposition was very strong. Those who were in the system or the people in Government did not feel comfortable with the new Constitution because, to them, it came to take away power from them. We have had that problem for the last 20 years. If you remember even the way it was agreed, it was commanded to the Members of the National Assembly that if they did not pass it between such and such a date, Parliament would be dissolved. The whole thing was rushed. Therefore, there was no time for anybody to think about correcting the mistakes, if any, or a misunderstanding within the Constitution.

For the years that we have served in the Kibaki Government and the current one, the idea of amending the Constitution to suit the people as their right has never been thought of by anybody. However, the idea to amend it to give more powers to Parliament is there. I wonder why you require all this power. You are capable enough to understand that the power belongs to the people that you are trying to deny it. They just give us this power for some time until they take it back. We have the facilities to make sure that whatever we do is the right thing and whatever the demand of the people is wrong.

I am divulging a little about the impeachment. It has been written very clearly although not 100 per cent because nothing is 100 per cent. It has to go through another process in order to reach there. Those who are drafting like the clerks will not have known the concern or points of Members unless something like this has been drafted.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki has given this House an opportunity to tell them that it can still be done even before the next general elections. It is very important to give people support and push that it can be done. In fact, it can all be done only if we are keen to do it. However, if you look at Senators who want to be governors, sometimes people misunderstand them. It is not them who want to be governors. It is the people at home who are fed up with the current governors. There is no county which will tell you that their governor is doing very well. This is very unfortunate.

However, you also have to understand the role of the governor with the people where he comes from. If you are surrounded by Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) – let me warn those who want to be governors – make sure you go with very good MCAs. These people have a problem. They connive and go for money from the governor and if he does not have, he is in problems. That procedure is also being done even in the National Assembly. How many times have they intimidated Government to give them something? It is only the Senate which has never had power to intimidate the system to give them what they want. We just rely on the National Assembly. When we came to the Senate for the first time and sat at the KICC, I gave a warning that we would lose everything.

Some people came into office thinking imagining that since they are Senators or governors, they can do anything without reading the Constitution. We could have

A achieved more if the judiciary was not a problem to us. If somebody is accused he is arrested and locked in without regard to the freedom for expression or defence.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Senate, the Judiciary and the Executive should consult each other on these problems. Unfortunately, the Judiciary claims that they are working hand in hand with everybody. If Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki is arrested, for example, I should go there with a lawyer to get him out if I am able to do so. However, the law has been used to subjugate other people and condemn them for nothing, only to regret later.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you again. I decided to raise my hand because my console is not working. God bless you.

Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) G.G. Kariuki. The Mover can proceed to reply.

A procedure.

There was also cited - I do not know whether it was directly related to the Bill - whether or not persons are to be impeached through a process in the Assembly, whether this Senate or County assembly should have their bank accounts examined.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, on a wider note, when it comes to the process, for example, in the CPAIC and so on, all people accused within the law by the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) and so on, I think we need to have a clear law where bank accounts and assets should be examined. There is no way, as one Member said, where a person’s official salary is Kshs85,000 but they have Kshs800million in their bank account. We must have a law which allows the legalized authorities to be able to look at these things.

If the person is impeached because of, for example, embezzlement of funds, the law does not stop the impeachment. You will be impeached and may be removed from office, but the law to recover the funds and so on still stands. I have not dealt with that in the Bill on the basis that it is covered elsewhere.

On the issue of the impeachment of the Assembly Speaker, I thought about at the beginning and left it out after reasoning that the Speaker is not really impeached as such because the Speaker is actually elected by the Members, either the National Assembly or the Senate or the county assembly. If the members of that house are dissatisfied with the Speaker, there is a simple process of voting him out. That is why I thought it is an impeachment passé although we use the word impeachment when we are removing a person from office, but in the case of a Speaker, I do not think it fits here.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is the issue of whether a County Executive Committee Member (CEC) impeached by a county assembly; that person should have room to appeal to the Senate. That is something between now and the time of the Committee Stage that we think about and see whether it is something to be included on the basis that people will run to courts. If somebody is impeached by the county assembly, he will run to the High Court. At the same time, we will be doing an appeal here. This is something we need to ponder between now and the Committee Stage so that we see whether it is something worth including in this Bill or not.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank all the Members who have contributed to this Bill. I personally believe it is a good beginning. It may not be an end in itself but it is a challenge being the legislatures to ponder and delve into these matters to the depth we can at this time. I have no doubt amendments will come in later. Let us have a law which attempts to spell out the process of impeachment. It is not an easy thing but it is a matter of life and death for politicians to be removed from office through this process. The Constitution provides that if you are impeached, you cannot run for office for 10 years. Therefore, this is something to be taken seriously. This procedure should be followed clearly. Where there are gaps, we fill them as much as we can.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move and I request that putting of the question be deferred until another day pursuant to Standing Order No. 54 (3).

A violated the law, we should not consult ‘Wanjiku’ and others whether or not the law was violated. However, I have done my best to ensure that there is the element of public participation.

If we had one or two successful impeachments or serious convictions over embezzlement of public funds, the level of corruption would be low. Sen. (Dr.) Zani raised an issue on page 93 of this Bill where I have quoted the portions that we need to repeal. This is not what is substantially in the Bill. Her observations were correct, but they are the portions that need to be repealed.

Article 181 of the Constitution does not include the impeachment of the deputy governors. Nonetheless, the Judiciary has found that they are also impeachable. We should provide the process for impeaching them. There was an issue in Kakamega County where the High Court found out that the County Executive Committee (CEC) Member is not impeachable. The reason was not that it is not provided for in law, but it was because of lack of procedure. We have now provided the procedure.

The issue of threshold is something dicey and deep. I suggest that if a Committee were to find that the threshold is not reached, the whole House should consider the matter.

On the specific threshold, this is something that I will need to relook at between now and the Committee Stage. The Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights gave me a copy of quite a big document where they had given the Bill a reasonably clean bill of health. As to why they did not make any amendments, Members of that Committee starting off with Sen.Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. were of the view that the President and Deputy President should not have been in this Bill.

Whereas I agree that the impeachment of the President and the Deputy President is a very weighty matter, my Bill will deal with procedure and not the impeachment per se. Some of the things I have proposed are not anywhere else. For example, I have proposed that there should be timelines in the procedure on the National Assembly before that matter comes to the Senate. If you do not have those timelines, there can be a lot of frustrations both on the person being impeached and the people doing that process.

To that extent, I would like to persuade the Members of the Senate that until that time, when we shall have specific procedure on the President and Deputy President, it be left within the same law. I think we should then pick it and make a more lengthy and detailed procedure. This is because, for example, when it comes to public participation it is easier when we are discussing a county. However, if we are going to do public participation in case of a President, which I have not dealt with here, it is a very weighty matter.

As I said, a Member can even table that Motion in the National Assembly and the Speaker refuses, becomes difficult or delays endlessly, which are some of the things I am addressing. We must give everyone some way within which to operate so that you do not frustrate the process or the people. Bringing the Motion does not mean that one is going to be impeached depending on the political divide you are.

On the timing of the Bill, one Member mentioned that perhaps we shall have done this one before. I am of the view that maybe if we tried this too early we needed that experience of several of these so that we can learn from the kind of issues raised and so on and the eventual decision to be able to come up with some semblance of a reasonable

A procedure.

There was also cited - I do not know whether it was directly related to the Bill - whether or not persons are to be impeached through a process in the Assembly, whether this Senate or County assembly should have their bank accounts examined.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, on a wider note, when it comes to the process, for example, in the CPAIC and so on, all people accused within the law by the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) and so on, I think we need to have a clear law where bank accounts and assets should be examined. There is no way, as one Member said, where a person’s official salary is Kshs85,000 but they have Kshs800million in their bank account. We must have a law which allows the legalized authorities to be able to look at these things.

If the person is impeached because of, for example, embezzlement of funds, the law does not stop the impeachment. You will be impeached and may be removed from office, but the law to recover the funds and so on still stands. I have not dealt with that in the Bill on the basis that it is covered elsewhere.

On the issue of the impeachment of the Assembly Speaker, I thought about at the beginning and left it out after reasoning that the Speaker is not really impeached as such because the Speaker is actually elected by the Members, either the National Assembly or the Senate or the county assembly. If the members of that house are dissatisfied with the Speaker, there is a simple process of voting him out. That is why I thought it is an impeachment passé although we use the word impeachment when we are removing a person from office, but in the case of a Speaker, I do not think it fits here.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is the issue of whether a County Executive Committee Member (CEC) impeached by a county assembly; that person should have room to appeal to the Senate. That is something between now and the time of the Committee Stage that we think about and see whether it is something to be included on the basis that people will run to courts. If somebody is impeached by the county assembly, he will run to the High Court. At the same time, we will be doing an appeal here. This is something we need to ponder between now and the Committee Stage so that we see whether it is something worth including in this Bill or not.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank all the Members who have contributed to this Bill. I personally believe it is a good beginning. It may not be an end in itself but it is a challenge being the legislatures to ponder and delve into these matters to the depth we can at this time. I have no doubt amendments will come in later. Let us have a law which attempts to spell out the process of impeachment. It is not an easy thing but it is a matter of life and death for politicians to be removed from office through this process. The Constitution provides that if you are impeached, you cannot run for office for 10 years. Therefore, this is something to be taken seriously. This procedure should be followed clearly. Where there are gaps, we fill them as much as we can.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move and I request that putting of the question be deferred until another day pursuant to Standing Order No. 54 (3).

Very well. It is so ordered.

Next order!

A

APPRECIATING that the Closed Circuit Television (CCTV) system installed by the Government in Nairobi has helped a lot in criminal investigations; NOW THEREFORE the Senate calls upon the National Government to:- a) install CCTV cameras in all police stations and police posts in order to record each and every person going in and out of the station; b) have the CCTV system designed in such a way that it is capable of capturing the Occurrence Book entries every twelve hours; and c) ensure the CCTV system is connected to a central depository in order to minimize chances of subsequent tampering. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in moving this Motion, I have in mind the wanting behavior of some police officers. There are instances, more than I have quoted in this Motion, where police officers arrest individuals on flimsy or no grounds. Sometimes they go to villages picking young men, frog matching them to police stations with the threat that if they do not part with a certain amount of money, they will be locked up. Sure enough, they usually lock them up. Sometimes they arrest members of the public for unknown reasons. Ordinary Kenyans are not in a position to question police officers. Subsequently, these individuals are locked up and are never seen again after the arrests. There are many cases of young men disappearing after arrest by police officers.

What is worse is that there are people who come in the name of police officers yet they are not in police uniform. One is never sure if they are police officers or not. I wish to ensure that as far as possible, we are able to force the police to record their activities in the police stations and posts. I am proposing that the Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV) systems that we have in Nairobi are installed in every police station. We have heard about the case of the Syokimau arrests and subsequent deaths. This is a case in point where the CCTVs were able to capture the movement of a subject vehicle which carried these unfortunate victims. If we have CCTVs in police stations, we will record activities there. I am proposing that there should be a central depository that is inter-connected. Should the need arise for the courts of law to know who went to a particular police station, how long they took there, who was with them and generally what was happening, we should have that record within the law enforcement system. Furthermore, we have in our country the internet system where these records can be connected in a central depository. This will allow us to review them as and when we want to. Police officers should not access them unless they are part of the evidence taking process later on should need arise.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is perhaps easy to do this in the police stations or in the house if one decides. However, police posts have a challenge because they lack electricity. So, I am proposing that if solar systems are installed, the police posts need to be computerized so that we also get the police officers there to account. We have had cases where junior police officers are covered by senior ones and so on. Eventually, you find that when a court of law orders the Inspector General to produce a person who was arrested in a police station in some corner of the republic, he is not able to do so. They are unable to know whether, in fact, a certain individual was taken to the police station or not. Therefore, as a nation, we should make a serious attempt at ensuring that these things are recorded.

A

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the system should be organised in such a way that the Occurrence Book is computerized. After every 12 hours, this system should be able to send to a base all activities of the people who came in and left the station. I am not suggesting that this system should record what a person said. What I am proposing is that the records of people who physically visit police stations or who are arrested have their records kept somewhere. In fact, we should go further and make it a criminal offence if it is established that a person was arrested, booked in a particular police station and there was no record of this anywhere. This is a criminal offence by the person in charge of that police station or post. If we do this, I believe it will go a long way in making the police officers to be in-charge of the police system and every officer will be accountable.

We have had cases where the numbers of police officers who go to curb cattle rustling are not known like in the case of Baragoi where many police officers were killed.This Motion is not just for criminals, it is also for the police officers.It will help to know the policemen who are in the station. It will also help to record the activities going in and out.In Baragoi, it was difficult to tell the number of officers who died. We were first told that they were three officers just to be told seven after three days.We were later told that they were 20 then 30 and it eventually ended up to be 40. That means that the system has no record of who is in a particular station and who has left because this is not recorded anywhere.

The system that I am proposing is not just an Occurrence Book for criminals. It is also an Occurrence Book of all the activities. It will help avoid guess work when something happens. In Baragoi, it took two weeks to know how many officers had died. If we go by the information in the media,there is a poor woman and her children who do not know whether the officer was in that station or if he was in the contingentthat went to the field because there was no record.

I am suggesting that there should be a proper recording system with the central control system where they report to. The Officer Commanding Station (OCS)will, therefore, not just boss people around, but he will also be reporting to a system where the whole police system remains accountable to the citizens. I hope that this will be implemented for us to go a step further in making better governance of police system.

With those few remarks, I beg to move.

A

APPRECIATING that the Closed Circuit Television (CCTV) system installed by the Government in Nairobi has helped a lot in criminal investigations; NOW THEREFORE the Senate calls upon the National Government to:- a) install CCTV cameras in all police stations and police posts in order to record each and every person going in and out of the station; b) have the CCTV system designed in such a way that it is capable of capturing the Occurrence Book entries every twelve hours; and c) ensure the CCTV system is connected to a central depository in order to minimize chances of subsequent tampering. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in moving this Motion, I have in mind the wanting behavior of some police officers. There are instances, more than I have quoted in this Motion, where police officers arrest individuals on flimsy or no grounds. Sometimes they go to villages picking young men, frog matching them to police stations with the threat that if they do not part with a certain amount of money, they will be locked up. Sure enough, they usually lock them up. Sometimes they arrest members of the public for unknown reasons. Ordinary Kenyans are not in a position to question police officers. Subsequently, these individuals are locked up and are never seen again after the arrests. There are many cases of young men disappearing after arrest by police officers.

What is worse is that there are people who come in the name of police officers yet they are not in police uniform. One is never sure if they are police officers or not. I wish to ensure that as far as possible, we are able to force the police to record their activities in the police stations and posts. I am proposing that the Closed-Circuit Television (CCTV) systems that we have in Nairobi are installed in every police station. We have heard about the case of the Syokimau arrests and subsequent deaths. This is a case in point where the CCTVs were able to capture the movement of a subject vehicle which carried these unfortunate victims. If we have CCTVs in police stations, we will record activities there. I am proposing that there should be a central depository that is inter-connected. Should the need arise for the courts of law to know who went to a particular police station, how long they took there, who was with them and generally what was happening, we should have that record within the law enforcement system. Furthermore, we have in our country the internet system where these records can be connected in a central depository. This will allow us to review them as and when we want to. Police officers should not access them unless they are part of the evidence taking process later on should need arise.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is perhaps easy to do this in the police stations or in the house if one decides. However, police posts have a challenge because they lack electricity. So, I am proposing that if solar systems are installed, the police posts need to be computerized so that we also get the police officers there to account. We have had cases where junior police officers are covered by senior ones and so on. Eventually, you find that when a court of law orders the Inspector General to produce a person who was arrested in a police station in some corner of the republic, he is not able to do so. They are unable to know whether, in fact, a certain individual was taken to the police station or not. Therefore, as a nation, we should make a serious attempt at ensuring that these things are recorded.

A

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the system should be organised in such a way that the Occurrence Book is computerized. After every 12 hours, this system should be able to send to a base all activities of the people who came in and left the station. I am not suggesting that this system should record what a person said. What I am proposing is that the records of people who physically visit police stations or who are arrested have their records kept somewhere. In fact, we should go further and make it a criminal offence if it is established that a person was arrested, booked in a particular police station and there was no record of this anywhere. This is a criminal offence by the person in charge of that police station or post. If we do this, I believe it will go a long way in making the police officers to be in-charge of the police system and every officer will be accountable.

We have had cases where the numbers of police officers who go to curb cattle rustling are not known like in the case of Baragoi where many police officers were killed.This Motion is not just for criminals, it is also for the police officers.It will help to know the policemen who are in the station. It will also help to record the activities going in and out.In Baragoi, it was difficult to tell the number of officers who died. We were first told that they were three officers just to be told seven after three days.We were later told that they were 20 then 30 and it eventually ended up to be 40. That means that the system has no record of who is in a particular station and who has left because this is not recorded anywhere.

The system that I am proposing is not just an Occurrence Book for criminals. It is also an Occurrence Book of all the activities. It will help avoid guess work when something happens. In Baragoi, it took two weeks to know how many officers had died. If we go by the information in the media,there is a poor woman and her children who do not know whether the officer was in that station or if he was in the contingentthat went to the field because there was no record.

I am suggesting that there should be a proper recording system with the central control system where they report to. The Officer Commanding Station (OCS)will, therefore, not just boss people around, but he will also be reporting to a system where the whole police system remains accountable to the citizens. I hope that this will be implemented for us to go a step further in making better governance of police system.

With those few remarks, I beg to move.

Very well. Could we hear from the seconder?

A

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to second.

Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m., time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, 22nd November, 2016, at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.

A

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to second.

Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m., time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, 22nd November, 2016, at 2.30 p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.