Thursday, 25th October 2018

Hon. Members, this is Public Petition No.123 of 2018. Standing Order 225 (2) (b) requires that the Speaker reports to the House any petition other than those presented through a Member. I, therefore, wish to convey to the House that my office has received a petition from Peter Mugo Mukua regarding amendment of the Constitution to include 9th March as a national peace day.

The petitioner is seeking that the House amends Article 9 (3) of the Constitution so as to include 9th March as a public holiday to celebrate National Peace Day. The petitioner avers that the event witnessed on 9th March 2018 following the historic handshake between His Excellency the President, Hon. Uhuru Kenyatta and the former Prime Minister, the Right Hon. Raila Amollo Odinga, after the contested presidential elections in 2017 marked a renaissance in the country’s history.

The petitioner further contends that, for decades, peace in Kenya had been elusive hence the recent handshake would be a gateway to a greater cohesion, peaceful co-existence, tranquillity and a sense of nationhood. Of great importance is the concerted effort by both Government and the Opposition towards achievement of the Big Four Agenda and realisation of the desired socio-economic and political development in the country.

It is against this premise that the petitioner prays that the National Assembly, through the relevant Departmental Committee, amends Article 9 (3) of the Constitution to include National Peace Day as a national holiday to be observed on 9th March annually.

This Petition, therefore, stands committed to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for consideration. The Committee is requested to consider the Petition and report its findings to the House and the petitioner in accordance with Standing Order 227 (2) .

Hon. Members, before I allow any comments or clarifications, let me allow the other Petition to be presented by the Member for Kilifi North.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker.

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I, the undersigned, on behalf of We Hatua Yetu Community-Based Organisation representing the Kilifi North Community residents, draw the attention of the House to the

following:

THAT, ancestors of the Mazrui land once ruled the port city of Mombasa after rebelling against the Sultan of Oman who laid claim to the coastal belt;

THAT, the Mazrui were dislodged from power in 1828 after Sultan Seyyid Said reclaimed power in Oman;

THAT, the Mazrui later on dispersed to Kilifi, acquired and occupied five blocks of land that is Block No.1, Certificate of Title 409; Block No. 2, Certificate of Title 408; Block No. 3, Certificate of Title 406; Block No. 4, Certificate of Title 407 and Block No. 5, Certificate of Title No. 414, which in total covered approximately 77,000 acres;

THAT, the said occupation deprived the indigenous community land for settlement;

THAT, the villages affected are Takaungu, KiribaWangwani, KibaraniMjibu, Mtondia and Mida in Kilifi North Constituency;

THAT, the Mazrui Land Trust Board was established by the Mazrui Trust Land Act and were the legal and registered trustees and administrators of the Mazrui land;

Therefore, your humble petitioners pray that the National Assembly, through the Departmental Committee on Lands;

Very well. I can see a few Members want to comment. I will give you two minutes each. Let us start with the Member for Nakuru Town East.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am contributing to the Petition on the National Peace Day. I am sorry I was not very attentive to get the name of the petitioner.

I come from an area that is frequently affected whenever there are elections. There is always some violence. I totally agree with the petitioner. If we base the date of the National Peace Day on the handshake issue, then other handshakes might in future also find their way into this country. I agree with the petitioner that this country requires a national peace day where people come together for purposes of national cohesion, unity, togetherness and peace. As Mzee Moi used to say: peace, love and unity. It is very important.

In Nakuru County, we appreciate the peace that has existed since the first handshake which was started by His Excellency the President and his Deputy, William Samoei Ruto, when they came together in 2012. Peace has prevailed in our region for quite a while. It is not a matter of who did the handshake, because if we go by the people who started the peace process, it was the President and his deputy. I totally agree with the petitioner that this country should not go back to that unfortunate period in our country when we experienced a lot of violence. Nakuru County, particularly, suffered a lot. That peace should prevail for our future generations.

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Let us have the Member for Kimilili. That is the Member for Kiminini. Fortunately, I know where the boundaries are. One is in Trans-Nzoia County and the other one is in Bungoma County.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am the Member of Parliament of where he comes from. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Peace is a very important element of development in this country. I do not think we have acquired the necessary peace that we need for us to have a peace day as a country. Until we see the end of the killings that are happening in the North Eastern part of this country and some parts of Trans Mara, that is when we can have a peace day.

The handshake between the President and the former Prime Minister is part of the development that this country needs but does not warrant having a national peace day. I do not think it is necessary.

Hon. Speaker, you always give strict timelines in which Committees should listen and dispense with petitions. I am fully aware that there are petitions that have been pending for more than three months. The Chairpersons of Committees need to work round the clock to ensure that they meet the timelines that are required to dispense with those petitions.

Hon. Barasa, you are at liberty to feel as you wish about the Petition. The more important aspect of what you just said is that Committees to which petitions have been referred have a maximum of 60 days to consider those petitions and submit a report. Remember, the report is merely submitted to the House as a formality. It is to be given to the petitioner or petitioners. If you have not submitted the report within 60 days, you run the risk of acting outside of the law. A report being tabled after the 60 days and any purported hearings or invitations to witnesses to appear with regard to petitions after the 60 days are over is outside of the law. It is ultra vires unless the House has been convinced to extend the time before the 60 days are over. Once the 60 days are over, anything else you are doing with regard to a petition is just for your personal entertainment.

If a petition has been lying with a Committee and it has not submitted a report within the 60 days, anything else it does is a waste of public resources. In fact, if any person is invited to appear before the Committee, I have given strict instructions that they should ignore those invitations unless the House, in exercise of its power, has extended the time for consideration of the petition. If you are given 60 days and they are over, please, do not waste any more public time and resources inviting people. They will not come! The Clerk has been accordingly directed not to sign any letters of invitation. He should check when the petition was referred to the Committee. If the Committee has not submitted a report, it is a waste of time. Just fold what you are doing and inform the petitioner that you were not able to finish what you were supposed to do. You should organise your workplans in such a way that within 60 days, you are able to present a report.

If for one reason or another you feel that you are unlikely to submit that report, you must come and convince the House that there are reasons or grounds enough to warrant extension of time. That is not just with regard to this Petition. I thank Hon. Barasa for raising that matter and reminding everybody that that is the law. Just look at the Standing Orders.

Even as I allow a few more comments, allow me to recognise the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of a delegation from the County Assembly of Baringo. The delegation is led by the Speaker of the County Assembly, Mr. David Kiplagat, Member of the County Assembly (MCA) . I welcome them to observe the proceedings of the National Assembly this afternoon.

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Further, allow me to also recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils and students from the following institutions:

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me this opportunity.

In line with Article 119 of the Constitution, everybody has a right to petition Parliament. The Petition that has just been presented, in case of any consideration, will be a constitutional amendment where we need the two-thirds majority. Having brought something similar last week, I know what it entails. National Peace Day is very important to this country. We salute the day we had that handshake because it changed a lot in this country. Some of us who suffered teargas in the streets salute that Petition. More importantly, we have a United Nations (UN) Peace Day. I wish that as we try to consider the peace day, it is in line with the UN one. It already exists.

Article 9 of the Constitution which talks of national holidays also states that Parliament may enact legislation prescribing other public holidays. Recently, out of the court ruling, we were able to celebrate Moi Day, which was not incorporated as per Article 9 of the Constitution. Maybe it is high time we amended the National Holidays Act for purposes of conformity so that in future, we do not have this confusion. We also appreciate Moi Day because it is a day dedicated to help the disadvantaged. My humble request to the Committees is that they move with speed and bring recommendations. If at all these proposals can be consolidated together with the amendments that have been brought to the Floor of the House, we can have a committee look at them and separate those that require referendum from those that require parliamentary initiative, so that we can move with speed.

I thank you.

Member for Endebess.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for allowing me to contribute to this. On the petition by Peter Mugo on the public holiday, when we who were in United Republican Party (URP) came together with those who were in the National Alliance (TNA) party to form Jubilee Party, the President and his deputy said never again should we go to war and lose lives because of political competition. I thank the Prime Minister for seeing that sense and coming up to have a handshake with the President and bring this country into harmony. We can see that we have focused on development and other initiatives.

The Petition by Hon. Baya is an issue of historical land injustice that the people of Kilifi and Coast are still suffering from as a result of the Mazrui and others. This did not just happen to the people at the Coast. In Trans-Nzoia, the Sabaots are the original inhabitants of Trans-Nzoia and up to today, many years after independence compensation for those who were chased away from their land has not been done. It was not done by the colonialists and even the neo- colonialists who came after independence.

The government then formed the Agricultural Development Corporation that was supposed to initially give people back their ancestral land.

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These comments are strictly for two minutes. Let us have the Hon. Member for Rarieda.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I commend the petitioner for recognising that the handshake was timely. We, indeed, know that as a result of the handshake, the Right Hon. Raila Amollo Odinga is now the High Representative for Infrastructure Development in Africa.

Hon. Speaker, a distinction is to be created between a national day and a public holiday. It is evident as you commit that Petition to the Committee that it takes note that while the petitioner is talking about a national peace day requiring an amendment of Article 9, indeed you do not require to amend Article 9. Article 9 (3) talks of three national days. However, the Public Holidays Act then prescribes other public holidays and they are 23 of them. I would suggest that in considering the Petition, consideration be made in terms of adding another public holiday to the Public Holidays Act, rather than the difficulty of amending the Constitution.

I commend Hon. Baya for the Petition he has brought on the Mazrui land issue. We know that we have had two attempts to address historical land injustices in terms of the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC) and the National Land Commission (NLC) but both have failed to do that. This is a good occasion to revisit that issue and the broader issue of historical land injustices at the Coast and elsewhere including the great island of Migingo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker

Very well, Hon. Members. In the interest of managing time, the two Petitions are therefore referred to the Committees to act in the manner that I have already directed.

Next Order.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

The East African Community (EAC) Customs Regulations from the EAC as follows:

The 22 legal notices being in the form of subsidiary legislation are accordingly referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation to act on them appropriately.

Next is the Vice-Chair of the Select Committee on National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) .

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

The Reports of the Select Committee on National Government Constituencies Development Fund on:

The Chairperson, Select Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

The Reports of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on its consideration of:

The Vice-Chair of NG-CDF, you had some other issue? Hon. Hassan which other Report?

I have a Statement.

If you look at your Order Paper we are on Order No.5 which is Papers Laid. Statements will be on Order No.7.

Chairperson Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation, Hon. Kisang.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House: The Reports of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation on:

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Hon. Members, this is for general information. Please learn to press the appropriate buttons. There are Members who sometimes wish to make interventions but since they have placed requests to contribute on the general debate, they are unable to organise the request in such a way that they can make interventions without affecting their right and priority in speaking.

For those facing those difficulties, I kindly request you to sit next to the Member for Endebess. He will show you how it is done. He never loses his chance to contribute to general debate while at the same time making use of his chance to make interventions. Just in case you are facing problems or maybe you have fingers which have problems when dealing with the machine, see him. Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal has said the gentleman is a surgeon.

Next Order! Proceed Hon. Zadoc Ogutu Abel.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:

THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Section 3 of the First Schedule of the National Cohesion and Integration Act, 2008, and pursuant to the provisions of Section13 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, 2011, this House resolves to extend the period for recruitment of Commissioners to the National Cohesion and Integration Commission by a further period of 14 days from 2nd November, 2018. Hon. Speaker, I bring this concern from the Committee on National Cohesion…

You have given notice of Motion and so there is no need to explain. Hon. Members, the advice I gave about those Members who sit to the right of Mr. Speaker should apply with equal measure to those who sit to the left of Hon. Speaker. If they could approach the Member for Kiminini, he will also show you how he does it without difficulties or the Hon. Member for Makueni. They do not lose their chance to speak on account of wanting to make interventions. So you do not all start criss-crossing, each of you have experts on both sides of the isle.

Next Order!

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Hon. Members, we begin with the Question by the Member for Nakuru Town East.

Question No.053/2018

Hon. Speaker, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Labour and Social Protection the following:

Could the Cabinet Secretary explain why Mr. David Gicheru Kinuthia, a former employee of the Ministry of Agriculture, has not been paid his retirement and gratuity benefits to date since his retirement in 1995?

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare to prioritise as appropriate. Member for Kwale County.

Question No.057/2018

Hon. Speaker, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Lands the following:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Lands to prioritise as appropriate.

Next Question is by the Member for Mandera East. Question No. 067/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Defence the following Question:

The Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations to prioritise as appropriate. The next Question is by the Member for Bomet Central, Hon. Tonui.

Question No. 079/2018

Hon. Speaker, I wish to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Education and Research to act as appropriate. Next Question is by the Member for Kwanza Constituency.

Question No. 104/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question:

The Question is similarly referred to the Departmental Committee on Education and Research. Next Question is by the Member for Igembe Central.

Question No. 107/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock to prioritise for the Cabinet Secretary to appear and respond. The next Question is by the Member for Tharaka Constituency.

Question No. 109/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Tourism and Wildlife the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Environment and Natural Resources to prioritise and know whether livestock bandits are being allowed to roam about and steal livestock. The next Question is by the Member for Kuria East Constituency, Hon. Marwa Kitayama.

Question No. 112/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Tourism and Wildlife the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Environment and Natural Resources to prioritise for the Cabinet Secretary to appear.

Question No. 113/2018

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The Question by the Member for North Mugirango Constituency, Hon. Joash Nyamache Nyamoko is deferred at his request. He is not present but he has requested for deferment.

We move to the next Question by the Member for Starehe Constituency. Question No. 124/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security to prioritise. Hon. Members, this is Question Time and the Question having been approved, you can only appear before that Committee to go and raise any issues you may have but for now the Question is referred to the Committee. You can also join him on that day. Let us hear the Member for Embakasi Central.

Question No. 126/2018

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government the following Question:

The Question is similarly referred to the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security to prioritise for the Cabinet Secretary to appear before the Committee.

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Hon. Members, the next segment is for Statements. We have a Statement by the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.44 (2) (a) , I rise to give a Statement on behalf of the House Business Committee.

The Committee met on Tuesday this week at the rise of the House. I wish to remind Members that the House is scheduled to proceed for a short recess commencing tomorrow in accordance with the calendar of the House. As a result of this, the House Business Committee has not scheduled any business for next week.

Upon resumption from the short recess, on 6th November 2018, the following Bills will be prioritised for Second Reading:

Committee on Environment and Natural Resources on Tuesday, 13th November 2018 to answer

Committee on Energy on Tuesday, 6th November 2018 to answer Question No.049/2018 from

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Cabinet Secretary for Sports, Culture and Arts will appear before the Departmental

Committee on Sports, Culture and Tourism on Thursday, 1st November 2018 to answer Question

I want to allow the Whip of the Minority Party to make his Statement. This is under Standing Order No.44 (2) (c) .

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No.44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and the Chairperson of the Committee on Delegated Legislation regarding coming into force of Section 65 of the Finance Act, 2018.

As you are aware, on 30th August 2018 this House passed the Finance Bill, 2018. Thereafter, the President retuned the Bill to this House pursuant to Article 115 of the Constitution with amendments on a few clauses, facts which are in the knowledge of all of us.

Subsequently, this House passed the Bill in light of the President’s reservations on 20th September 2018 into law and was thereafter assented to by the President. One of the key provisions of the Finance Act, 2018 is Section 65. It provides that the Central Bank shall provide, in regulations, conditions on deposit or withdrawals by customers in banks and financial institutions. As it is presently, withdrawals and deposits from banks are governed by the Central Bank in circulars stipulating conditions for making deposits and withdrawals. This includes requirements for documentation and the quantum of deposits and withdrawals a customer can make from a bank among other a million and one conditions.

This provision was included in the Finance Act by the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, following public participation and outcry by Kenyans who raised issues with unclear stringent rules that apply in the banking sector, deterring Kenyans from engaging in public transaction.

I agree with Kenyans that up to now no one can answer questions, including how the Central Bank came up with the guidelines, where they are made, whether in golf courses and wherever they were agreed upon. The contents of the guidelines are subject to speculation and, worse still, there is no impact assessment statement that has ever been done to assess the impact of the guidelines on the economy. This has been adverse in chocking liquidity and money circulation and flow into the economy. Where liquidity and money circulation are not present in an economy, stunted economic growth is the obvious result.

Hon. Speaker, it is also similar to asking you how much you think I have in the pockets of my trouser. It is impossible for you to know. Unless you sneak through the air into my pocket, you will not know. I have not seen you putting on some goggles that can enable you see inside my pocket. Consequently, when customers shy away from banking, the Central Bank cannot tell how much money is circulating in the economy.

Many Kenyans shy away from withdrawing or depositing money due to the strangling conditions. Indeed, this has seen shylocks and mobile loan enterprises rise with many Kenyans preferring to bank with them despite the exorbitant interest rates. This has made the bora uhai phrase gain traction among desperate Kenyans seeking to access banking services. Better still,

A certified version of this Report the joke has been that if you break into many houses in our villages, you do not need to hover around thinking of what to steal. Just go straight to the bed and check below the mattress and pillows and you will find a lot of money. Do not go to the kitchen or near the cowshed, just go straight to the pillow and mattress. For the rich folks, the sale of safes for keeping money has risen as people prefer keeping their money in them.

I am not by any chance saying that regulating the banking service is wrong. In any case, banks and financial institutions in the European Union (EU) are the healthiest and most stable. They regulate banking services such as withdrawals and deposits. What is wrong with our financial sector is the manner in which the Central Bank has regulated the same through unclear and vague conditions in a form of guidelines and circulars.

The last time I heard about circulars was when they used to be given to chiefs to harass Kenyans. To imagine that the Central Bank of Kenya prefers the use of circulars to regulate banking transactions is shocking. This state of affairs is what informs Section 65 of the Finance Act, 2018. This provision seeks to maintain the regulation of withdrawal and deposits through properly defined regulations.

In this era where money laundering and the flow of illicit money through economic crimes has been a concern for most countries worldwide, the need for regulation cannot be overstated. The regulations will however be different from the guidelines; they will be thoroughly scrutinised, analysed and examined using considerations including impact assessment outlined in the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 by the Committee on Delegated Legislation. There will be public participation and scrutiny of how regulations comply with other laws. I can go on and on, on the importance of Section 65 of the Finance Act but permit me to note that the section has to be implemented for us to kick out vague guidelines on banking transactions.

As I conclude, just to restate, Section 65(1) of the Finance Act provides that the CBK shall prescribe in regulations conditions on deposits or withdrawals by customers in banks and financial institutions. Further, Section 65(2) of the Finance Act provides that the CBK shall within 30 days of coming into force of this Act prescribe regulations setting out conditions for deposits and withdrawals by customers in banks and financial institutions in accordance with Statutory Instruments Act.

Section 65 came into force on 1st October 2018 and 30 days expire on 31st October 2018, which is next week when we will be on recess. This is, therefore, to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and the Chairperson of the Committee on Delegated Legislation on when the regulations will be brought to the National Assembly for scrutiny in accordance with Statutory Instruments Act. The days for CBK to comply are nearly over and so we move first with this in mind.

To conclude, the Constitution is very clear; no person or body other than Parliament has the power to make provisions having the force of law in Kenya except under authority conferred by this Constitution or by legislation. We have not given these powers to the CBK to do legislation on our behalf. We all belong to our religious sects. Some are Muslims, Christians while some are Legio Maria – in my place they are called Roho Maler and Roho Mowar. You can also be an Opus Dei where you live below Kshs100 a day. To you, a million is like a billion shillings. Let us not bring those issues into banking regulations; let us have regulations that have been scrutinised by Parliament.

With those few remarks, I request the Chairpersons of the two Committees to give a response urgently with their consideration.

Thank you.

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No. Standing Order No.44 (2) (c) says that a Member, with leave of the Speaker, can stand and request for a statement and the Speaker shall appoint without debate the date on which the Chairperson of the Committee to which the statement is directed is to come and make the statement. Obviously, we should thank our Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning for coming up with provisions in Section 65 because there is room for the CBK and authority which is contemplated under Article 94 (5) of the Constitution as read out by Hon. Junet to make those regulations. However, the Statement cannot be given by the Chairperson of the Committee on Delegated Legislation because no such regulations have come up to the Committee. So, this statement should be responded to by the Chairperson who I can see has been listening very attentively; that is the Chairperson Finance and Planning, Hon. Joseph Limo, on Thursday November 8th 2018 at 2:30 p.m.

What Hon. Junet has said is true; that section 65 requires that regulation should be promulgated within 30 days period which was given in the law. So, Chairperson Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, start preparing to deal with your client. Find out how he is going about implementing Section 65 of the Finance Act which already is the law now. It is not the Chairperson on Delegated Legislation but the Chairperson Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning who will respond.

The next statement is by the Chairperson Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Speaker, let me begin by stating that I am making this Statement on behalf of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. There have been various concerns by Members of the House regarding legislative proposals that Members have submitted to your office and which are then referred to our Committee. We have been confronted by many Members of Parliament asking the status of these legislative proposals. Therefore, this is out of our own volition to apprise the House on the status of these many legislative proposals.

I will also table after I finish the Statement, the list of all the 48 legislative proposals that we have received since the inception of the Committee and their status to date. Article 114 of the Constitution provides a clear procedure on how legislative proposals are to be processed. In addition, the Standing Orders also provide guidance on how Bills are to be processed. Hon. Members are aware that only legislative proposals that have been identified to have some financial implications are referred to the Budget and Appropriations Committee in accordance with Article 114 (2) of the Constitution, Standing Order 114 (3) of the National Assembly and the Public Finance Management Act of 2012.

Since January 2018 when Budget and Appropriations Committee came into operation, 48 legislative proposals have been submitted to the Budget and Appropriations Committee. These proposals relate to health, finance, agriculture and ICT sectors. The Budget and Appropriations Committee, when considering these proposals, invites the sponsor of the Bill to appear before the Committee and justify the importance of the legislative proposal given the fact that it may lead to a charge to the people of Kenya.

Resources are, indeed, scarce and any legislative proposal that is likely to increase the resource gap or tax the citizenry has great need for keener scrutiny. As required, the Committee also seeks the opinion of the National Treasury so that an approval of such legislative proposal does not negatively impact the resource framework in the medium term. It is on account of the

A certified version of this Report financial implications of some of the legislative proposals that the Committee recommends to the Speaker to deny the approval of the proposal not unless there are amendments to make it less costly.

Out of the 48 proposals committed to the Committee, 28 legislative proposals have been completed and decision communicated to the Speaker. Seven are awaiting response from the National Treasury who are required to communicate their opinion at least a minimum of 14 days. It is important to note that the Constitution and the Standing Orders do not state a timeline but we have indicated to the National Treasury that it would rather have this put at 14 days. As soon as the 14 days expire, the Committee will go ahead and advise the Speaker on its decision. One legislative proposal is delayed on the request of the Member. That happens to be myself. The remaining 13 legislative proposals are still in the process of being reviewed by the Committee.

Hon. Members, I would like to draw attention to the work plan of the Budget and Appropriations Committee which is very intense compared to other committees. The Budget and Appropriations Committee contributes as much as 70 per cent of the legislative agenda of the House. In February and March 2018, the Committee was considering the Budget Policy Statement, the Division of Revenue Bill and the County Allocation of Revenue Bill that were delivered to the House as per the timeliness without delay.

In May and June 2018, we considered the Budget Estimates for the 2018/2019 Financial Year and passed the Appropriation Bill 2018. In September 2018, we were engaged in the review of the First Supplementary Budget for the 2018/2019 Financial Year. The Committee always creates time to consider Bills. The Budget takes first priority. On that note, I would like to request Hon. Members to note that we have, at least, on three occasions invited Members who have failed to appear before the Committee. We have made efforts to give them a second and third opportunity to do so.

The Budget and Appropriations Committee is one of the Committees in the National Assembly whose plate is full. I hereby table the status of all Bills submitted to the Committee.

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Hon. Speaker, I will table these Reports. As I said, it was on the volition of the Committee to apprise the House on what has been done. We table the Report for Member to see the status of their Bills.

Hon. Members, I think the issue raised by the Chair of the BAC about Members who write letters is valid. To write letters is perfect. Members write letters to me indicating that they have intentions of initiating certain legislative proposals. I have noticed a trend whereby the moment I write “approved, Clerk of National Assembly, please assist the Member”, I see it on social media and then debate follows. I do not want to mention any Member. This week, a Member has been debating such letter. In the minds of Kenyans, there is a Bill. Even today, I have been inundated with questions by members of the public, “Where is the Bill by Hon. So-and-so? It is so popular with Kenyans.” I asked: “Which one?” Hon. Members, please, follow what the Chair of BAC has said. I know many of you think that the BAC may be sitting on your Bills. The Committee has to follow due process and invite you, as the person who is initiating the legislative proposal, to appear before them. That is after it has been analysed by the Parliamentary Budget Office to determine whether it is a Money Bill or not and such other considerations, as required by the Constitution.

I know that many of you could be businesspeople or you could be desirous of having Kenyan businesspeople assisted, but look at the two Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bills. They have proposals to amend some of the laws that you are busy discussing in the radio stations and television stations and causing a lot of unnecessary excitement among Kenyans. In the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill published on 10th April, there is a proposal to amend the Public Procurement and Asset Disposal Act, 2015. So, even though you write a letter and get excited about it, and want to excite the entire constituency and the church where you go so that everybody is busy saying: “This is the greatest law proposal that has ever been sent to Parliament”, let it be known that it is just a letter that the Member has written. You may not even appear before the Committee. More importantly, read the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill and propose your amendments there because it is already there. So, please try to follow the procedure.

Of course, I know that some of those debates are motivated by the desire to earn bonga points, but you cause unnecessary pressure on some of us. We are asked: “How far has that law gone? Have you taken it to the President for assent?” We go through this despite that it was only a letter which was written. I cannot take a letter to the President to assent to. But you will have excited everybody in the country and they are very happy. As you know, they will be asking you how far the Bill is within one week. Since it was only a letter, when they come to me writing or asking, I will just write to them: “Tell the Member that it was only a letter and it was just meant to get your attention.” Of course, it is not a very bad thing to get attention. I mean, why are you elected? It is because a lot of attention is paid to you. But, please, let us just try to moderate a bit. There is too much of debate on television stations as opposed to the Floor of the House. You are only debating letters or notices of intention.

Member for Samburu North.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Select Committee on

A certified version of this Report the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) regarding delays in disbursement of the NG-CDF. We are in the Second Quarter of Financial Year 2018/2019 and the Government has not released funds to constituencies yet there are ongoing projects with outstanding payments that need to be cleared.

Furthermore, there are balances of funds which were not disbursed in the last Financial Year 2017/2018 and they need to be disbursed now.

Hon. Speaker, the Chair is aware that most constituencies have allocated bursary funds to college and university students to enable them graduate while others are set to join universities and other learning institutions. As it stands, most of these students are out of school due to fee arrears. In addition, the long recess is approaching. A number of activities, including sports meant for youth engagement, may be affected by delays in Exchequer Issues. More importantly is that projects are done by contracted firms. If payments are not made, we will end up accumulating huge bills. It is against this background that I seek the Statement from the Chair of

the Committee on the NG-CDF on the following: Reasons for inordinate delays in the release of

the funds and when the said funds will be released to address the aforementioned problems.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Finally, it was deliberate that I organise business that way. The Vice Chair, the NG-CDF.

Hon. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement to the House on the allocation of funds for 2018/2019 Financial Year.

The NG-CDF is established under NG-CDF Act 2015 Act as amended in 2016 with an objective of addressing poverty and regional development imbalances by dedicating a minimum of 2.5 per cent of the national Government share of annual revenue towards community driven development projects in every constituency identified and implemented at the grassroots level.

Further, Section 34 provides for the basis for budget ceilings. Specifically, the Act states that the budget ceiling for each constituency shall be the amount specified in Section 4 (i) divided equally among all constituencies subject to the provisions of Section 8 (1) and Section 23 (1) . Section 8 states that a portion of the fund equivalent to five per cent herein referred to as emergency reserve shall remain unallocated and shall be availed for emergencies that may occur within the constituency.

Section 23 (1) provides that the expenditure for running the board and related purposes shall be set aside at the beginning of the financial year and not more than five per cent of the total allocation to the fund in the financial year may be used for this purpose. The annual budget shall be approved by the Cabinet Secretary with the concurrence of the National Assembly committee.

Based on the above provisions of the law, the board’s provision of the proposed budget ceiling for 2018/2019 Financial year is as follows:

Now there was a specific request for a statement by the Member for Samburu North. Hon. Hassan Omar, I do not know whether you followed the question raised by Hon. Lentoimaga.

Hon. Speaker, I followed the question and after tabling this Statement, the board will circulate the circulars for proposed development for each constituency latest, early next week. To answer the question by the Hon. Member, the earlier you submit your proposals, the earlier the funds will be disbursed to the constituencies.

Hon. Members, let me take this opportunity to thank all for your understanding because the delays were not caused by this Committee or the board, but the changes in budgeting and the supplementary budget that we passed recently.

Thank you, very much.

Hon. Members, before we move to Order No. 8, I wish to allow The Leader of the Majority Party to move a Procedural Motion.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No. 30 (3) (a) , this House resolves to extend the sitting time of the House until conclusion of business appearing under Order No.9.

Order No. 8 is the Procedural Motion and Order No.9 on the supplementary Order Paper is the Committee of the whole House on Health Laws (Amendment) Bill, which we started yesterday. Knowing that we are going on recess - this will be our last day until 6th November 2018 - this is just a cautionary Motion. If we finish, we are home and dry. In case we do not finish, we have a leeway until this order is concluded. It is only for Order No.9.

I beg to move and ask Hon. Chris Wamalwa to second.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Health Laws are very important and they are long overdue. I, therefore, request Hon. Members to remain behind because this is a very important law as far as health issues are concerned.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I second.

I hope Members are paying attention. Even those who like debating on television about health have already taken off. I am not referring to any particular Member, but I have just seen some who are very vocal on television shows about health happily begin their recess and yet we are dealing with the Committee of the whole House on health matters.

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Hon. Members, I may wish to congratulate many of you who stayed and participated in discussions on this Bill in Committee of the whole House. You know yourselves. Member for Suba North, I could tell you were very active. I cannot mention everybody. The Member for Seme will never leave the Chamber when we have this kind of Bill. Of course, Member for Ndhiwa, Member for Kiminini and Hon. Wanyonyi.

The Member for Endebess, the Chair of the Committee and even the Mover remained in the House throughout and it is commendable. That is the way it should be when there is such important legislation being considered at this very crucial stage in the law-making process.

Next Order.

The Vice-Chair of the Committee, Hon. (Prof.) Ogutu. He is a member? Very well, I was notified by the Chair that he will be moving this Motion.

Hon. Speaker, on behalf of the Chairman and the Committee, I want to take this opportunity to move this Motion. Commissioners of the National Cohesion and Integration Commission (NCIC) were appointed in 2013 and their tenure has expired. The commission is in the process of recruiting new commissioners.

Hon. Ogutu, you are a committee, not a commission.

Hon. Speaker, I am learning. I beg to move the following Procedural Motion:

THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 3 of the First Schedule of the National Cohesion and Integration Commission Act, 2008, and pursuant to the provisions of Section 13 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act, 2011, this House resolves to extend the period for recruitment of commissioners to the National Cohesion and Integration Commission by a further 14 days from 2nd November 2018. The commissioners of the NCIC were recruited in 2014 and their term has expired. We are in the process of recruiting new commissioners. For a number of constraints, we beg that we be given more time to be able to undertake this process in the best manner possible. A large number of applications have already been received and we expect more to be received as the period for submission of applications has been extended by one more day. This then will mean more time needed for the secretariat to do analysis.

Secondly, we are breaking for recess and it is the request of Members of this Committee that it may not be possible enough to get all of them to attend to the various steps in the recruitment of these personalities. For that reason, it would be useful that we give enough time which will give the Members opportunity to reflect on the report of the analysis from the secretariat.

Thirdly, this process that has been initiated is very crucial. The NCIC commissioners are very useful to this nation because they will be members of one of the commissions that carry the fate of this nation. It is, therefore, important to note that the timeline in the Act of seven days is too tight for a successful and good process to be conducted and concluded. A critical component that makes us to make this application is public participation. We need to fully involve the public

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With those few remarks, I want to ask Hon. Benjamin Mwangi who is a member of this Committee to second. I move.

Member for Embakasi Central.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Public participation is crucial for this commission and as a Committee we feel it will not be good and we will not do justice to the public if we do not give them a chance for public participation. As a nation, we are undergoing many challenges that call for consultations. It is important we recruit people of high integrity who will unite this country.

I second, Hon. Speaker.

Now these two Members who are locking horns… We needed them to disentangle a bit so that we can proceed.

Hon. Members, I think what needs to be explained is that under the law, the Committee would have had only seven days within which to conclude the process. They are requesting that they be given an extra 14 days. This is done as it should be under the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act. The extension sought is for 14 days.

Put the Question.

Is it the desire of House that I put the Question?

Yes.

Next Order.

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(Resumption of consideration interrupted in Committee on 24.10.2018)

Order Members! For guidance, we resume Committee of the whole House on the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 14 of 2018) . I encourage the Chair to be very clear and brief. Only two Members will be given opportunity on any proposed amendments. Therefore, we will be moving pretty fast.

Order, Hon. Millie. I might start by debriefing you if you continue in that manner. I have made a decision that only two Members will speak to every amendment. That is the position that has always been in the House. The Chair will be brief and we will be pretty fast.

We are on the provisions relating to nurses and we are at Schedule 2 (2) .

Are we together Hon. Members? We are doing page 1408 of the Order Paper and page 637 of the Bill. We are dealing with provisions relating to Nurses Act Cap. 257.

Proceed, Hon. Chair.

Thank you Hon. Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

It is just a deletion. Hon. Millie Odhiambo, do you want to speak to the deletion? Okay proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman, I wish to support from a rule of law perspective. You need to give ample time for somebody to respond and so I support.

It seems many Hon. Members are supporting.

as amended agreed to) Nurses Act, Cap.257, New Section 2

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Let us have the Mover to move the Second Reading. It is a new section and so you need to move the Second Reading. It is in the Order Paper.

(Consultations) What is it Hon. Onyonka?

I am a bit confused. I remember yesterday there was a discussion that there were parts of the Food, Drugs and Chemical Substances Act which the Hon. Speaker...

We are dealing with the Nurses Act.

That is why I said I am not sure. I am confused.

No, Hon. Onyonka. You can never be confused. You know you are a very seasoned Member and you have handled many of these things many times.

Thank you. I get it.

So, you are in order. It is the Chair who is delaying the process of what we want to do. So, Chair, you are the one who is moving the Second Reading. All you need to do is to say that the New Section 2 be now read a Second Time

THAT, the New Section 2 be now read a Second Time. Hon. Chairman: You need to just explain briefly so that Members can be up to speed. Hon. (Ms.) Sabina Chege

: This section was about the new terms, that is, midwife and nurses. The amendment proposes to change the name of the Act to read: “The Nurses and Midwives Act.” So, the amendment is necessary to remove the term “midwife” from the definition of the word “nurse” since it has been defined on its own. Hon. Chairman: That is very clear.

I give two Hon. Members. Let us have Hon. Osotsi. He is the one on top of the list. He is absent. Remove the card so that when he comes back we can realise that he has come back. Leader of the Majority Party, do you want to speak to this one? Hon. Aden Duale

: I think it is just about the two terminologies we have introduced in this Bill, that is, “midwife” and “nurse”. Hon. Chairman: So, let us have one more Member so that I keep you at two. Let us see if Hon. Edith Nyenze wants to speak to this one. She does not and so I put the Question.

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Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 2

Hon. Chairman, could I request the Chair of the Committee that when she is moving the amendments, even though you have encouraged her to be brief, for purposes of legislative records, that where you have more than one proposed amendments like the one we have just gone through, she speaks to them. This is because she has just spoken about definition of midwives and nurses and yet there was also constitution of a body. So, by the time we want to talk to it, we have already passed. So, Hon. Chairman even if we want to be fast, there is no Standard Gauge Railway (SGR) or a plane here. We are legislating.

Well the SGR is close by but I encourage her to act as you said. She should be brief and clear. We have had a lot of time to debate this at the second stage. Hon. Chair, I encourage you to move fast and clearly. If there is anything that we think you should clarify further,

Thank you Chairman, I stand guided. I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I will give two Members. Let us start with the Leader of the Majority Party.

I think the Chair’s amendment means that the common seal of the college shall be kept by the Corporation Secretary. But to ensure there are checks and balances, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) must authenticate its usage to ensure there is harmony.

Hon. Mutua Barasa, I see you want to speak to this one.

I just want to bring to the attention of the House that this is a very important Bill. We want to hear what this amendment seeks to introduce in the current Health Laws. This is because we need to improve them and not deteriorate them further. The Chair should tell us its importance and value addition.

Hon. Barasa, from where I sit, both the Chair and the Leader of the Majority Party were very clear and they explained the specific issues, not unless you did not understand. Let us hear from the Leader of the Majority Party on his clarification.

Hon. Didmus Barasa was not here yesterday. We are no longer looking at the importance of this law to the sector, we are dealing with specific amendments and the Chair while moving must give reasons. This amendment was very clear, one person will keep the seal and the other will authenticate its usage.

Hon. Barasa, even if you have a different opinion, I cannot see your name on the list. I do not think you have a card. If you have it place an intervention and I will give you an opportunity. You do not have a card so, I will ignore you.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

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put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 4(2) as amended agreed to)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Let us have Hon. Wamalwa. You should not raise a point of order. Just proceed and contribute, you have the Floor.

The Chair should give the justification because in this case she has said she wants constitute training centres to be known as campuses. I know these are synonyms but what is the justification? Why should it be called a campus instead of remaining as constitute training centre? Members want to know the justification. In this country, we know campus means university. Universities offer degrees and that is why they are called campuses. It will be confusing to call them campus while they offer diplomas. So, please justify.

I do not want to enter into debate. For sure Dr. Wamalwa knows it does not matter. The word ‘campus’ is not reserved for institutions offering degrees. But you are right in asking for justification. Let me give Hon. (Dr.) Pukose.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. A campus means land on which a university or college is built on. A constitute training centre is administered by the main college. By calling it a campus it means it will have its own administration and will function independently.

I will probably give one more Member on this particular one. I am looking for the names of Members who I can see raising their hands but I cannot see them on the request. Let us have Hon. Kitonga Maanzo.

Thank you, Chairman. The justification is in the statute of the college. So, I want to support the Chair on this because she is right. The word ‘campus’ is correct based on the statute.

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(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 7(b) as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 7(d)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I will give opportunity to two Members. Hon. Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I rise to support this proposed amendment. This board can be like that of a parastatal or any institution not meant for higher learning. So, it is to give it the alignment it requires so that it is an educational institution with a council that runs the affairs and supervises and so on. I support.

It is straightforward.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

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I will start with Hon. Gichimu Githinji, Member for Gichugu.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I rise to oppose that amendment. This is because it goes against the spirit of the Mwongozo code, which has been the guidance of most of the amendments. Actually, it also seeks to abdicate the role of the company secretary and also seeks to introduce the CEO as a managing director as well. KMTC, as we know it, is not a profit making corporation and managing directors, as we know, are usually in companies that also make profit.

At this stage of the House we should not debate but just seek those straight-forward clarifications like what you have done. Let me give the Floor to Hon. Rasso. I do not know why Hon. Pukose says welcome to the House. You have always been a Member of this House. I just cannot understand that, but whatever the reason, I think it is in good gesture.

Proceed, Hon. Rasso.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I rise to support that amendment. Many of the principals of different KMTC campus are currently PhD holders. So, when we say that the CEO of KMTC should be a master’s degree holder, we are saying that the holder of that office should be a highly qualified Kenyan. Also, the many years of experience are required in this particular case.

I beg to support that amendment.

Members can have their say.

There was a second proposed amendment by Hon. Maanzo, which obviously is dropped now because the Committee amendment was carried.

There is also one by Hon. Ondieki Miruka which is also to be dropped because the Committee amendment has been carried.

So, we will proceed as we had proceeded. Just for clarity, I will start again.

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(Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(1) as amended agreed to) So, the two amendments are dropped. In future, what I will be doing, because this was a different page, I will be mentioning so that the Member can know and those particular Members who will be having those amendments would get an opportunity to, probably, convince Members on their bit. That is what we will do. I can see under Section 8(5) we will have that kind of a clause.

(Section 8(2) agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(3)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Mine is not even on this amendment, which I support. I think, procedurally, where there is no amendment it is good you put the Question. Where other Members have amendments, as you said earlier, it is good that you tell Members, if the amendment by so and so is carried then theirs is dropped.

That is perfectly in order. I will give the Floor to Hon. (Dr.) Makali Mulu. Of course, my assumption was that the Hon. Members have their Order Papers and, therefore, they would see where there is an amendment or not, but for those Members who, probably, will not be having them, I will be trying to mention. However, that will only be temporary.

Proceed, Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman.

Sorry, let me say Dr. Makali Mulu. Proceed.

You know, to add these titles you do not just pick them on the streets. They need to be mentioned. I support this amendment because I think this development is very important for our CEO. However, how I wish that we could be consistent because I remember when we were discussing the issue of the poisons board, you said a master’s degree is not a requirement. You said it could be an added advantage. That was the opinion of the Leader of the Majority Party and I wonder how he now says yes to it. I think it is important to be consistent.

It makes sense although if I remember clearly, what the chair said is that this being an institution of learning, it is a training institution and so it deserves people like you, Hon. (Dr.) Makali Mulu.

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However, you see Hon. (Dr.) Makali Mulu, since I have introduced you as Dr. Mulu, in any subsequent mentions if I do not mention Dr. Mulu you can as well take legislative notice that I had already mentioned it in the first place. So, I do not defrock you of the title.

(Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(3) as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(4)

Hon. Sabina Chege, you have an amendment on this.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I will give two Members a chance starting with Hon. Wetangula Wanyonyi.

Hon. Chairman, I wish to support the amendment. It is good that the tenure of the CEO is defined and given. This is four years and he is eligible for reappointment.

This is a good amendment. I support it.

Hon. Mutua Barasa, Member for Kimilili.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I support this amendment. It is a very good amendment. A CEO should be given an opportunity to showcase the good things he would want to do and after a period of time is subjected to appraisal before re- appointment. If he does not do well, he should be sent home and somebody else should be hired. If he does a good job, he should be reappointed.

(Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College,

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Cap.261, Section 8(4) as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(5)

I take precaution because we have three amendments to this section. One is by Hon. Sabina Chege; the Committee’s amendment which if carried, Hon. Daniel Maanzo’s and Hon. Ondieki Miruka’s amendments will fall. I believe I have given sufficient warnings.

Hold on, Hon. Millie Odhiambo. I know how to drive this seat. Proceed Hon. Sabina Chege.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Moroto. He is not in the House. So, I will give a chance to Hon. Maanzo.

Hon. Chairman, in the particular section, I have proposed an amendment to enable the Board to appoint a Corporation Secretary, as is the practice under the Mwongozo Code of Governance and Ethics. The Corporation Secretary shall also be the secretary to the Board. The Corporation Secretary will be different from the CEO under such terms and conditions of service as the Board may determine.

On a point of order, Hon. Chairman.

I see many Members are interested in having an intervention. What is your point of order Hon. Dido Rasso? You have the Floor. We have a problem with your microphone. As you prepare yourself, let the Leader of the Majority Party take the Floor.

Hon. Chairman, it is good we go on record. If you read the amendment of the Chair of the Committee and that of Hon. Maanzo, they are basically the same. Hon. Maanzo says that the Board shall appoint a Corporation Secretary who shall be the secretary to the Board on such terms and conditions of service as the Board may determine. The Departmental Committee Chair says that there shall be a Corporation Secretary to the Board who shall be appointed by the Board on such terms and conditions of service as the Board may determine. They are the same.

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It seems that they are the same.

Hon. Chairman, protect me from Hon. Millie. She is saying that one is in Kiswahili. This is serious business. If you allow me, can you ask the Whip to bring the grandfather, Hon. Moroto to deal with her?

No, we cannot allow anybody to deal with this gracious lady. She can only be dealt with by the Chair.

Thank you, Hon. Chair. I agree with Hon. Maanzo and differ with the Leader of the Majority Party. The amendments are not the same. The Board shall appoint a Corporation Secretary who shall be the secretary of the Board on such terms and conditions of service as the Board may determine.

If you agree with Hon. Maanzo, then it means you also agree with the Chair of the Committee. Anyway, Members will decide.

Lastly, I will give chance to Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal.

Hon. Chairman, as a Member of the Committee, I support the Chair’s amendment. There is a distinction. The distinction is that Hon. Maanzo says that, that person will be the secretary to the Board. That is the distinction.

What are you supporting yourself?

I support the Chair’s amendment.

It is not about supporting the Chair.

I support the Committee’s amendment that there shall be Corporation Secretary who shall be appointed by the Board on such terms and conditions …. That is what I support. I wanted to make sure that there is distinction so that when we decide, we know the distinction.

Ordinarily, Hon. Nyikal is a very meticulous legislator. But on this particular one, he has simply said that he is supporting the Chair’s amendment. I will proceed to put the Question and the rest will be as proposed.

Hon. Maanzo’s amendment and that of Hon. Ondieki Miruka fall on the face.

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(Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Proposed amendments by Hon. Daniel Maanzo and Hon. Alfah Ondieki withdrawn) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 8(5) as amended agreed to) Hon. Members, we will proceed straight to deal with the sections. If we put the Question on Section 9, and it is carried, it means that the rest will be carried. We need to go section by section. I see the very experienced legislator from Kanduyi nodding his head. So, let us proceed.

Hon. Millie, to clarify, we were about to deal with Section 9 yet there is section 9 with specific roman numbers. If we had carried Section 9, the implication would have been that all the rest would have been carried because it is Section 9. So, we have decided to do the sections in the particular sub-sections.

(Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona spoke off record) I do not want to engage you from where you sit. Hon. Sabina Chege has an amendment. Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 9(1)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

On a point of order, Hon. Chairman.

What is it Hon. Wamunyinyi?

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. First, if the entire Section 9 (1) should be carried, she should explain each subsection, so that we can save time. She can explain from (a) to (g) . The proposal she has referred to concerning the Director- General and the length of experience of 10 years should be made standard. In different Acts that we are amending, some of them indicate 15 years, others five and others 10 years. She also needs to clarify on the Director-General being a member of the board because it is going to recur. In normal circumstances, it has been the Principal Secretary, who is the Accounting Officer in the ministry and the boss of the director.

I hope the Chair is following that bit because that is what I am also grappling with. I see that you have just moved a bit of Section 9 (1) . There will be a new one. It is not new as you would require to move the new sub-clause. It is just new because it is in the Bill. Proceed in that particular bit then I can propose it and the Members can contribute. It is still 9 (1) , but there is a small bit which you did not move for clarity.

The other one is the terms used. We propose to change “chairman” to “chairperson”. These amendments are necessary for the purposes of gender neutrality in drafting.

There is a bit on the Chief Executive Officer and the rest.

Let me just go through it, Hon. Chairman. In 9 (1) (a) , there is a proposed amendment of having the chairperson who shall be appointed by the President. We have given the qualifications of the chairperson and the experience. There is also the Chief Executive Officer, the Principal Secretary in the Ministry of Health, the Ministry responsible for the National Treasury and the Director-General. This is to harmonise with the new Health Act, 2017. There are also three independent members appointed by the Cabinet Secretary. Another one person with knowledge and expertise in finance or audit is appointed by the Cabinet Secretary. That goes all the way to (g) .

I beg to move.

Hon. Millie and then I will come to Hon. Omulele.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I support even though I do not understand why the chairperson has to be appointed by the President. Having said that, I support because of ensuring gender and regional balance and skills.

Hon. Christopher Omulele, Member for Luanda.

Hon. Chairman, I support this proposed amendment. I just want to raise the attention of this Committee and the Chair, as we proceed, that we have made the Chief Executive Officer to be the secretary to the board in an earlier amendment.

I thought we did not because that was the proposal by Hon. Maanzo Kitonga. Was that not the case, Hon. Chair?

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It was the case.

The proposal by Hon. Maanzo was to make the CEO the secretary to the board, but there is an earlier amendment. If you look at Page 1404 at Paragraph (e) , we made the CEO to be the secretary to the board.

Hon. Omulele, I can understand why you are very meticulous. From where I know you schooled, there is all the possibility that you would be that keen. Hon. Chair, what is it that you can explain on that particular one?

I just want to clarify what Hon. Omulele has raised, which is the truth of the matter. In all the amendments, across the board, the CEO is the secretary to the board. I want to follow Mwongozo that clearly states about the appointment of the Corporation Secretary. Section 3 states that the Corporation Secretary may provide full time or part time services depending on the needs of the organisation and (4) states that the Corporation Secretary shall not be a member of the board. The CEO is an ex-officio member of the board. So, there is no way we could have a person who is not a member of the board giving secretarial services to the board. That has been the position. This is not only with KMTC, but across the board. We have standardised across the board. We followed Mwongozo.

That is clear. If you had put that one clearly earlier, the Members would not be having issues. We are doing Section 9 (1) .

On a point of order, Hon. Chairman.

What is it? We cannot have many contributors on this one.

I am opposing.

You have been in the spirit of opposing this afternoon, but I will allow you because this is a fair house. What is it, Hon. Gichimu Githinji, Member for Gichugu?

Hon. Chairman, my concern is on 9 (1) (f) and (g) , where the Committee proposes amendments to include one person nominated by the Council of Governors and three members appointed by the CS. This one erodes the independence of that board.

I hear you, but I wish to know which specific area you are contributing to. Is it Page 1409?

Sorry, Hon. Chairman. I stand guided. I have yesterday’s Order Paper.

We are obviously on today’s Order Paper. The way Parliament runs is such that we can only deal with the current Order Paper. What was there yesterday must have been dealt with yesterday. Hon. Rasso, are you opposing or supporting? If you are supporting, it is pointless, we can proceed.

Hon. Chairman, I am supporting, but I saw something that says, “university recognised by the board”. We are making laws for this country. While it might appear small, throughout, it is a university recognised in Kenya by a board. Which is this university that can only be recognised by the board?

Hon. Chairman, I do not know how with my keen eye I missed such a thing. I would want to urge the Chair to do an amendment because she is the only one who can do it. If the board decides to recognise Kanyikela University, which is being formed tomorrow, is that a university? It is not the board that recognises. I urge the Chair to do a further amendment on her feet.

What you are raising, Hon. Millie, and Hon. Rasso, looks very reasonable. Let us hear from the Chair.

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Hon. Chairman, I am in agreement. I think that is just a typo. I want to go on record that we amend that to read “a university recognised in Kenya”. That was a typo, my apologies.

I am really struggling on how to handle that further amendment. As we make amendments on the Floor, we have to be very clear. You are talking about a university recognised in Kenya. Which is this university recognised in Kenya? Is it a university that is recognised by the Commission for University Education (CUE) ? So, it is important for you to consult, so that we do not mess up. This is a very serious Bill, in my opinion.

What is your point of order, Member for Kimilili?

Health being a devolved function, could the Chair consider giving the CoG an opportunity to nominate someone to sit on this? When you are managing a function, it is always good to understand what is going on within the trending spheres.

Is the KMTC a devolved function? Let us hear from the leader in the meantime.

What is devolved is health. The training aspect of health is not. It is about standards. So, I really urge Hon. Barasa that the CoG has no place here.

Let us get this specific further amendment. The best would be when the Chair proposes an amendment, it would be good if we could get the difference on whether she wants it to be “a university recognised in Kenya” or “a university recognised by the CUE”. I want us to agree on that because it is critical.

Hon. Kimunya, you know we sometimes get the benefit of some of the very experienced Members. Let us hear your thought on this.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I believe the standard is “a university recognised in Kenya”. The manner of recognition of the universities is provided within the Universities Act.

Then it means Hon. Sabina Chege proposed a good further amendment. Even from the interruptions by Hon. Pukose, you can still hear that is the exact support he is giving. So, we will move to dispense with the further amendment.

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the amendment to Section 9

(1)

be further amended by deleting the words “by the Board” appearing in paragraph a

(1)

and substituting therefor the words “in Kenya”.

as amended agreed to)

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(Section 9(2) agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 9(3)

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. (Ms.) Sabina Chege, this is a deletion.

I beg to move:

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THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Members, if you look at the Bill, you will find that Section 10 and Section 10 (1) are distinct. Luckily, both of them do not have amendments.

Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 10 (2)

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have been asking for intervention even before you came to the Chair. It was over the section that we have just passed. I would like to draw the attention of Members to this Section 9 (3) . It is where we are talking of conviction. I request that we recommit it, if you agree with me. The Leader of the Majority Party, give me your indulgence. It is where you are talking of conviction or a member of the board is convicted of an offence and sentenced for a term not exceeding six months without the option of fine.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: What is it, Leader of the Majority Party? Order, Hon. Wamunyinyi.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Order, Hon. Wamunyinyi. I will give direction on this.

We are On Section 10 (2) . The Member is talking about Section 9 (3) . We have no problem with him. He can recommit it if he approaches us. Procedurally, there is no way we can discuss a section which we have put Question to. Hon. Wamunyinyi can come and we discuss recommittal. We have enough time because we have passed a Procedural Motion.

I mean what we have just passed says that one will be fined and goes back to work, if convicted for stealing. That is what it is saying.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Wamunyinyi, that section can be recommitted. The procedure is there, but that is already done. We are past it now.

as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 11

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Why?

Hon. Millie, you understand when you say “shall” it becomes mandatory and when you say “may”, there is an option.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Leader of the Majority Party.

I am sorry. I am in Section 14 (2) .

Hon. Omulele.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I think this is good amendment because it is making it clear that in the event the CEO is incapacitated, then the deputy shall act. If you use the word ‘may’, you will leave room for people to play around and they can bring somebody else. It is good.

as amended agreed to)

A certified version of this Report Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 14(2)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it appears there is a stranger in the House. We have not seen Hon. Savula in a long time. So, we do not know whether he is still a Member of this House. He comes in with a very big ‘Noe’ yet he has no clue what we are doing in the House. Can you, please, direct him? Otherwise, he is a stranger in the House.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Savula is wearing quite a wide smile. Clearly, he is rightly here.

This is not about sugarcane. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Savula, you do not need to speak on this. I heard your negative voice vote. It was quite loud. So, you are rightly here.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Hon. Savula, must you speak on this? The Chair is confirming you are rightly here. You are defended. Let us proceed.

(Section 14(3) agreed to) Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 16(1)

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Miruka is away. If you are away, Hon. Millie, your amendment is dropped. I support the Chair’s deletion because the function to amend or revoke any statute is the function of Parliament. It is not a function of a CEO or a board or the Executive. I really want to thank the Chair. I think there was a problem of drafting.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Maanzo, why are you guiding the Chair towards the direction of Hon. Gichimu. Hon. Gichimu, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I do stand to support the amendment by the Chair of the Committee. The proposal in the Bill would have made the Academic Council a judge in their own case, because you cannot ask them whether you need to do something that affects them and seek their opinion. So, that is very commendable and I believe it is in the right direction.

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Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Training College, Cap.261, Section 19(2) as amended agreed to) The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Hon. Ondiek Miruka’s proposed amendment falls.

(Proposed amendment by Alfah Ondieki withdrawn)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I would just like to be guided because with the other one, we did the new sections. This one also had new sections. Maybe we need to revisit it because there are some that we did not go through. I will show you. We can proceed. Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 2

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. I am just curious why in this one, we are providing a minimum qualification for a professional at diploma level when in all the others we are providing at degree level. Is it that nutritionists are very few or what is the reason? I doubt that they are very few. In my own household, we have just got one person with a degree qualification.

I thank you, Hon. Millie for the concern. Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal can answer the same although he seems to be very busy reading the amendments. Apart from them being very few, it is not only on this one. Even in nursing, we have also recognised diploma holders. So, this is not unique to dieticians. It is across the board, depending on the cadre. You will see several others that we are also recognising to be diploma holders.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Let us have Hon. Nyikal and then we put the Question.

The issue here is that in many of these cadres, you have people who are degree and diploma holders. The pursuit has been that to a large extent, a large number of them have been diploma holders. Then we have a few of them who are degree holders. So, if you start by having a degree, then you will be locking out a very large number of members. On the other hand, even if we include diploma holders, it does not block degree holders. They can still hold the position.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, we must make progress on this one. Leader of the Majority Party.

I totally agree with Hon. Millie Odhiambo. You know there is this culture in nursing, clinical medicine and nutrition where diploma holders want to hold people hostage. People must go to school and learn. We will support this, but this is very discriminatory. I think in future, we might even amend this section in the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Act. We do not want to be victims of the war between diploma and degree holders in the nursing, clinician and nutritionist professions. If they are diploma holders, universities are many and they should go and study. They should not hold back the people who have first degrees, master’s degrees and PhDs.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, let us make progress on this one.

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(Provisions relating to Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 5(2) as amended agreed to) Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 5(4)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

This amendment is very important. Why are we saying that these nominating bodies must send two names to the CS? One is to look at gender and regional balance. However, the leaders of these nominating bodies can nominate their wives, girlfriends, boyfriends or relatives. So, the CS must have the discretion to do due diligence.

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(Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 5(4) as amended agreed to) (Section 6 agreed to) Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 7

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Even though I support the Chair, I want to say this is not a grammatical error because the words ‘appointed’ and ‘recruited’ have very serious connotation from governance perspective. I support her, but when you recruit, it means there is openness, inclusivity and transparency which we are encouraging in this country.

Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 12

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I think the Chair is getting tired. I want her to read for us. When the word ‘may’ is removed, how will that sentence read?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Chair is gracious enough to read.

It reads, “the Accreditation Committee shall generally may”. So, we are deleting the word ‘may’.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: It is just tidying up.

It was a typo. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: It is truly a typo, as Hon. Millie Odhiambo is saying.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof

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be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 13 as amended agreed to) (Sections 14, 15, 16(c), 17(1), 19(1), 19(2), 19(3), 19(5), 21(1) and 25(1) agreed to) Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 25(2)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Omulele, which section are you seeking?

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am on Section 25 (2) , which we have just dealt with. Is Section 25 (6) in the Order Paper?

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: It is on Page 1413.

If it is there, let us move on.

as amended agreed to)

Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, Section 30

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended-

A certified version of this Report Nutritionists and Dieticians Act, New Section 31

Chair, move Second Reading of New Section 31 and then you justify.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended-

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended-

You know, I do not offer tutorial here.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

What is out of order? I have not even moved. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Order, Leader of the Majority Party. He is on a point of order. What is it, Hon. Gichimu? What is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, on all other previous amendments, the Chair has always been giving the Committee the first chance so that if the amendments by the Committee are not carried, then any other person who has their amendments can move their amendments and they are discussed.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: You know the Leader of the Majority Party is the owner of this Bill and the amendments are not related. It is completely different. So, please, let us have the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you know when you are a first timer, you need to learn, particularly when it comes to the Committee of the whole House. Hon. Wamunyinyi, Hon. Millie Odhiambo and Hon. Nyikal, my amendment is fundamentally different. Secondly, I am the Mover of this Bill.

Having said that, let me move my amendment to Section 5 (1) (a) . Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, No. 20 of 2013 –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you can do it, but we have the Order Paper. The KEMSA was formed primarily…

On a point of order!

Let me finish. Some Members are irritants. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Millie, what is it? Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, when a Member has raised a point of order… What is out of order?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. We always encourage that they table fewer pieces of legislation and not an omnibus Bill where Members get so tired. I am not challenging the Leader of the Majority Party, but I want us to move together. I have looked at Page 1413 and I do not see his amendments.

They are not there!

Exactly. We cannot see the amendments. We need to move together.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Order, Millie Odhiambo. It is on Page 1420. Leader of the Majority Party, please, proceed.

She has been my old friend since 2007. This amendment is very important, colleagues. The KEMSA was established to provide national and county public health facilities. Since KEMSA does not give kickbacks, county governments do not want to buy drugs from them. They buy from individual chemists where they get kickbacks. This amendment binds all national and county health facilities to KEMSA as their first point of call. The only time they will not buy from KEMSA is when the prices are very high or the drug is not available.

If we do not do this, all the drugs at KEMSA stores will expire. This is what is going on in the counties. The money in the county public health facilities is Kenyan taxpayers’ money and this is a Kenyan institution. We must put it in law that their first point of call must be KEMSA. If

A certified version of this Report the prices of KEMSA are very high or the drugs are not available, they can go to the commercial sector.

(Hon. Aden Duale consulted with the Clerks-at-the-Table) The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Let us wait for that consultation. It is important. As soon as I propose the Question, you will get a chance.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, you need to explain. There is a mix up. I was supposed to move the first amendment.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, just for the sake of clarification, the Leader of the Majority Party dealt with the new section as he was moving. It is important for us to move slowly so that we are together. We are dealing with Section 5

(1)

(a)

and not a new section. You will have a second take on this.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I thank the Leader of the Majority Party for that amendment. We considered it in our Committee as well.

As somebody who has worked in a county, let KEMSA be the first stop. As you all know, commodities are an essential part of universal healthcare. Sometimes they run out of stock, but there are other organisations like Mission for Essential Drugs and Supplies (MEDS) with fair prices.

As the President, when you finalise your campaigns and get into office, you have a lot of people to consider. Sometimes, it is difficult. We were trying to make it possible for the President to get these qualifications. As the Leader of the Majority Party says, this is a very important person. As KEMSA expands, we will be considering many donors and bilateral agreements. These qualifications will give the President an easy time.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Let us have Hon. Sabina and then we progress.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The amendment to Section 5

(1)

(a)

by the Leader of the Majority Party is similar to the Committee’s amendment. The only difference is that where we said that the chairperson should have 15 years’ experience in matters relating to healthcare and business management, he has added “or public administration”. I do not think we have a problem with that as a Committee. I drop my amendment so that we can adopt the one by the Leader of the Majority Party.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: It will depend on the decision the House takes.

(a)

as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 5

(1)

(e)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: There are two amendments on this. One is by the Leader of the Majority Party and the other one is by Hon. Sabina Chege on Page 1421. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support the amendment. I support because of the critical role they play. We need persons with relevant expertise. If we go back to the same issue about degrees, there are certain professions we seem to treat as underhand professions and give them very low levels. That is why we talk about diploma for counsellors, psychologists, nutritionists and dieticians. We must have a paradigm shift. We have even made a provision for degrees in this Parliament and we have given Members a period within which to attain it. There are people who even want to be governors. I know Members right now who have registered to do degrees. Otherwise, they will not be governors. So, why are we providing lower standards? As a nation, we are forging forward. We are not in the 1960s when our parents used to say: “In our days, people were appointed with certain levels of qualifications”. This is the way to go. Let us encourage every Kenyan to pick up the spirit of working hard and not the quick fixes that is being entrenched in the country.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Before we move to that, it is important to make it clear about the amendment by the Chair. You notice that the amendment by the Leader of the Majority Party having been carried, the Chair’s amendment has to be dropped.

Hon. Millie, I was within, but consulting with my legal team because I want to be sure. I wanted to know about the board members. It is clear that one board member will have a degree in pharmacy and the others will have relevant degrees, which is okay with us. So, I support the amendment. I withdraw my amendment.

(Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act,

Section 5 (1) (e) as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 5 (2)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Again, we have two proposed amendments, one by the Leader of the Majority Party and another one by Hon. Sabina Chege, the Chair of the Committee.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I have just noted that the Leader of the Majority Party is following what the Committee had recommended. So, we have no problem. We support his amendment and I withdraw my amendment because they are similar.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: What is your point of order, Hon. Leader of the Majority Party?

I do not follow committees, but we have similar amendments. Committees demean my office even as a Member of Parliament.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Well, that is a discussion for another place.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 5(2) as amended agreed to) Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 5(3)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): There are two amendments again; one by the Leader of the Majority Party and the other by Hon. Sabina Chege.

It looks like the Chair of the Committee is following me. I am not following her. If the people of Garissa Township hear that I am following the Chair, they will interpret it to mean other things.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support. It is not clear who is following who, but I support and drop my amendment.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, is the Leader of the Majority Party in order to allude to what is against nature? He is the one who can follow Hon. Sabina Chege, not vice versa. It goes against the order of nature. He is definitely the one following Hon. Sabina Chege.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Order, Hon. Millie. You must be lucky the Leader of the Majority Party was consulting. So, he did not hear what you said.

Hon. Iringo.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I appreciate that these amendments are being carried easily because they are quite in order. Can we get a clarification on who copied from the other one because they are similar? It is just

A certified version of this Report wasting our time. One of them must tell us who copied from the other and stop duplicating things.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Hon. Iringo, you do not need a clarification. These are two Members who are working very hard. They seem to have a common position, which is good in this case.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 5(3) as amended agreed to) (Section 8(2)(a) agreed to) Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, Section 8(3)(b)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am wondering why Dr. Pukose is standing, but I understand we have been sitting for a long time. We may need to have a way of doing some exercises.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amendment –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairlady, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support the Leader of the Majority Party on this knowing very well that KEMSA is a question of standards and quality so that we have standardisation of what is delivered countrywide. You are also aware that at times, drugs that are not authentic have been brought into the country. If you buy from any other chemist, you might buy poison for the wananchi. So, I think this is a very good amendment.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I also support this proposed amendment by the Leader of the Majority Party. Just to stress the fact that KEMSA should be well-resourced and funded to ensure that it is effective in New subsection

A certified version of this Report getting or making available all the drugs that are required so that counties do not have an excuse to go out.

Secondly, we recently had a case of expired drugs that could not be explained where they had been sourced in a certain county. If we pass this law and we are strict about it, we will ensure that our citizens are protected.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Let us have just a few Members so that we do not linger. I will come to this side. We had a rule of two, but I will extend a bit on this one. Hon. Duale. There are several Duales and this is Hon. Duale Dahir.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I support the Leader of the Majority Party on this new sub-section. We will have value for money and quality. It will also make sure that KEMSA is able to provide the basis for bulk procurement and reduce prices. So that even the private sector can buy from them. One of the most expensive things in this country is medicine. I think this is a long overdue rule which we should entrench in law.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Onyonka, one minute.

I just wanted to echo what my colleagues have said. Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, I give you a lot of credit for this. The KEMSA has been the problem. I hope we will try and fix it later so that we can have a data bank on how we know when medicines come in and when they go out in a manner that can be followed all the way to county governments. Let us put our feet down and make sure that all the medicines are bought from KEMSA as a first option.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Why do we not make progress on this one? Who is opposing? Hon. Thuku, did you say you are opposing? You better do what you say you will.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am in support of the amendments up to a certain point where the Leader of the Majority Party is proposing that county governments should buy their supplies from KEMSA. Without opening a pandora’s box whereby you allow such drugs and medical supplies as seen in (a) and (b) … The national Government and county governments are supposed to place their orders with KEMSA. Then, KEMSA can procure, so that we do not open boundaries for county governments to continue spending money on medicine. They will always justify and say that KEMSA does not have supplies.

I am opposed to that.

[The Temporary Deputy Chairman

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took the Chair] The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Members, we are dealing with new sections. Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, New Section 5(1)(d)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): It is a new section. I call upon the Mover, the Leader of the Majority Party.

I beg to move:

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I rise to support this amendment. For me, even in the other amendment, I would have loved the CoG to be there. The biggest clients of KEMSA will be the county governments. Therefore, it is important that they sit in this board. There are many issues that are coming. We have also said that the first port of call will be KEMSA. Therefore, it is only important that they are represented in the authority.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Sabina.

Maybe, I am still trying to understand. First of all, I support the amendment. My issue is with the nominee of the CoG who is going to be a board member. The Cabinet Secretary normally appoints a person and we have already given the qualifications. Being that there are 47 governments, when we again add competitive recruitment, that will be an issue. That is the only issue that I have. I would suggest that there be one person appointed by the CoG because they have their way of appointment instead of competitive recruitment.

No, it must be competitive.

The other board members are not competitively recruited. Why do you want to discriminate the CoG? For the Cabinet Secretary, it is just an appointment.

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All the other board members are appointed by the Cabinet Secretary apart from the CEO, who is competitively recruited. Even the chairperson is appointed by the President. So, why do we want to do competitive recruitment for the person appointed by the CoG?

Generally, I support. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well, let us get some clarification from the Mover.

Hon. Chair, you know there are 47 governors. Here we are talking about the President or a Cabinet Secretary. For the 47 governors to be comfortable with the person that will sit in the board, they must do it competitively. Whoever they pick, they will send the name to the Cabinet Secretary. There are 47 politicians. How do you pick somebody? They cannot just sit somewhere and pick somebody. They must do a competitive recruitment, whoever wins, then that name is sent to the Cabinet Secretary.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Members allow me to put the Question.

Kenya Medical Supplies Authority Act, New Section 5

(7)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

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Thank you very much Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I had an amendment on the same section, but it is the same. It is not even similar. So, I support and withdraw my amendment.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well, Hon. Okoth.

It is Akoth.

Mabonga

Mabona and not Mabonga. Hiyo ni bonga points.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, I want to support. In supporting, I want to say that we are setting a good trend by having inclusivity especially from regional, gender and skills balance. The only thing I encourage us is to know that, as a country, we are being left behind. In Ethiopia, ministers are 50/50 and they just appointed a woman President. Even if it is just ceremonial, we do not mind. Who told you we mind being ceremonial presidents? Sabina Chege does not mind being ceremonial, neither do I?

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Counsellors and Psychologists Act, No.14 of 2014 by deleting the proposed amendments to (a) section 2. Section 2 is one of the sections I have proposed to amend. I had put them together. If you look at the proposed amendments, they are linked to each other because Section 2 is in respect of council and society as words in the Act. If you amend Section 2, it is going to defeat the proposed amendments to the other sections that I have proposed.

I, therefore, wish to propose amendments to Section 2. Am I making sense? The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Wamunyinyi, allow me to propose the Question.

Hon. Members, if Hon. Wamunyinyi’s proposals are carried, then the Act will remain as it is. That is my understanding of the proposal. Hon. Wamunyinyi, the Members want to understand exactly what your proposal is about.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I said Section 2 has a relation to the other sections. It is just deletion of the words, “council” and “society”, and that is what I oppose. When you move to Sections 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22, they are about the society. So, if you delete Section 2, it will affect retention of the others, which I am also opposed to. That is why I propose retention. I have reasons. Maybe Members are interested that I give reasons why I want to keep the society.

One, the society was meant to be an umbrella body; a professional association for the members of the profession. It brings them together as members of the profession, similar to any other society in existence. It is important for us to note that this profession of counselling and psychology is fairly unique also. It is not a lesser one. When there was disaster at Westgate - we have had disasters all over - it is not easy to put together counsellors in this country because they are scattered across. For you to get counsellors together to attend to a particular disaster which requires them, you go to the society. It will be easier to mobilise them through a society where they are members. I would like the Leader of the Majority Party, who is my friend, to kindly bear with me on this one so that we can move together. I will support you elsewhere. It is give and take.

The other one which is of importance is that the society is meant to harness the activities of the profession and complement what the board does by self-regulation, training in areas of progression within the profession and to ensure that members of the profession remain professional and registered. Also, this society will not cause an expenditure of public funds or incur expense from the Government. This is a members’ organization, which is to ensure that

A certified version of this Report once you are a member of the profession, qualified and registered, you will be recognised by the board.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Let me give some guidance to the House. The Bill, at Page 669, proposes to delete definitions of “council”, “secretary” and “society”. Hon. Wamunyinyi is opposed to this proposed deletion. He wants the status quo to remain so that we have those definitions as they are in the Act. Are we together? Do we understand each other? I am going to allow Hon. Onyonka. He caught my eye first, then the Member for Saku and then the Chair.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, after listening to what my leader, Hon. Wamunyinyi, has said, I want to soften the heart of the Leader of the Majority Party. This is an organisation.

It is not Hon. Wamunyinyi who softens my heart. The only thing that softens my heart is reading the Holy Quaran and when my wife and kids talk to me. It is not Wamunyinyi.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Onyonka, make your contribution to the Chair. Do not worry about the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, the point I am making is that this is a group of individuals who serve in the medical profession. Let us give them legitimacy by allowing them to get themselves together, just like the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Board, where they will run their affairs, but within the structures of the Government and within the Ministry of Health. I do not see what the complication would be.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Member for Saku.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am also in support of what Hon. Wamunyinyi is saying. This Bill was passed by this House in the last Parliament unanimously. So, if there is no gravitas why it should be expunged, then let us retain it.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Leader of the Majority Party, before I allow Hon. Nyikal. Hon. Nyikal, proceed.

We passed this Bill. Hon. Wamunyinyi is my friend and I will support his other proposals. Why the Committee decided so was simple. We are putting two things together. We are putting a regulatory authority and a society together. The Committee’s position was that societies are registered under the Societies Act. This is another Act. Basically, that is why the Committee decided we should split them. So, I oppose this.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Finally, let us have the Chair before the House can make a decision on it.

Let us hear the Chair. Hon. Pukose, allow the Chair to put her thoughts together.

We have the Leader of the Majority Party here and Hon. Wamunyinyi is also a ranking Member of this House, but there are procedures. We conducted public participation, but I did not see Hon. Wamunyinyi appear before our Committee to bring his sentiments. If he needed to move further amendments, he

A certified version of this Report should ask the Leader of the Majority Party to drop his amendments, because that is in the Bill, or he would have written his amendment. He has not done any written submission.

I would ask the House to allow us to go through the Committee amendments. If they do not satisfy him, then we can do a recommittal. The first amendment he is proposing is retaining the words proposed for deletion. I have the Act and these are definitions. We might reinstate the definitions, but we might not need them in the Bill if we have the Committee amendments. We met this society and various people who came in during public participation and it is part of our notes. I do not know whether Hon. Wamunyinyi has gone through the Committees’ details on the submissions that were done by the counsellors and psychologists who came before us. I would request that you allow me to finish. I admire his zeal and he has stayed with us till now and so, I would painfully reject.

I request that we go through the Committee’s amendment and then, if necessary, if we find that whatever he was proposing can be supported and would not interfere with the Committee’s amendments, then we can recommit and support it.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Chair, if I could just get you before I allow Hon. Wamunyjnyi to make his final submissions. I do not see a proposed amendment by the Committee to this particular section. There is no proposed amendment by the Committee. Hon. Wamunyinyi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I also just wanted to clarify that there is no proposed amendment to this particular one. However, I am also aware of the submission to the Committee to that affect and, maybe, for information, this Act was passed by Parliament in 2014. It has not been implemented to date. It has not been operationalised to date. When you cause an amendment to an Act which you have not tested… That is why I am appealing. I will support the other amendments that have been proposed by the Committee and they are just coming after section 2.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Members, I think we all understand where we are. Allow me now to do what needs to be done.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

Counsellors and Psychologists Act, Section 4 (1) (b)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I needed to know what we are deleting because ours is a deletion and substitution. We are deleting section 4 (1) (b) which reads:

“Delete and substitute therefore the following paragraph— One person who shall be nominated by the Cabinet Secretary from the public sector. We have proposed to delete that part because it is already in the new proposed Section. The amendment to 4 (1) (b) and the others that will follow will no longer be necessary because our new amendment will take care of them.

(b)

as amended agreed to)

Counsellors and Psychologists Act, Section 4 (1) (e)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Sabina.

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I had promised not to oppose the amendments by the Chair and I want to stick to my word. But I want to point out that in the amendments that the Chair has brought, a point to note is that the Principal Secretary for the parent ministry has been excluded from the Board.

Secondly, I do not know why there is inconsistency. In some Acts, it is proposed that the appointment of the chair be done by the President while in others it is by the Cabinet Secretary. Is this because some other boards or institutions are of lesser value? Why is there inconsistency? We know from all the enabling Acts of all institutions that the authority to appoint the chair is vested with the President. But, in today’s legislation in the Counsellors and Psychologists Act and the others, I have seen the chair is to be appointed by the CS. Maybe, the Leader of the Majority Party should shed some light on whether there are particular reasons for this.

This also applies to the diploma issue which the Leader of the Majority Party has articulated before. I do not wish to repeat that holders of diploma in some areas are recognised. I also think this should be addressed.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

I think the President appoints chairs of State corporations. We allowed you to call this body a society. So, you are the one who lowered it. Let us leave this society at the discretion of the CS.

(Question, that the words to be left out be left out,

put and agreed to)

(e)

as amended agreed to)

Counsellors and Psychologists Act, Section 4 (5)

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

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THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Counsellors and Psychologist Act No.14 of 2014 by deleting the proposed amendments to—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, just to help the leader, from Section 15 it is establishment of the society, which had been deleted.

Section 16 is on the membership of the society. Section 17 is on the chairperson of the society. Section 18 is on the functions of the society. Section 19 is on the Council of the Society, committee and membership of the Council and so on. There are two parts. There is part (b) of the society and a part (c) of the council that was retained.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, the moment we allowed the definition to pass, it follows that these other sections should also be aligned to it.

Counsellors and Psychologists Act, Section 16

Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi

: Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, it is the same rationale. I propose that we tackle all of them together. I had earlier moved all of them.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Just move the amendment to Section 16. We will go one by one.

Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi

: Do you want us to go one by one? The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Yes.

Fine. Hon. Temporary Deputy

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Counsellors and Psychologists Act, No.14 of 2014 by deleting the proposed amendments to—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Counsellors and Psychologists Act, No.14 of 2014 by deleting the proposed amendments to—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I am not sure the House is quite clear. Hon. Wamunyinyi is quite clear. I still appeal to him and we can even look at this later. We are creating a regulatory authority and a society at the same time. It is like having the Kenya Medical Association (KMA) and Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Board in one. I do not know how that will work. That is something we have to think about as we go along. We have two bodies - a regulatory authority and a society at the same time.

The regulatory authority is the council; and now we have a society. That is why we were saying that…

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, allow me now to put the Question.

A certified version of this Report Counsellors and Psychologists Act, Section 21

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Christopher Omulele): Hon. Wamunyinyi, Hon. Wafula Wamunyinyi (Kanduyi, FORD-K); Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended in the proposed amendments to the Counsellors and Psychologist Act, No. 14 of 2014 by deleting the proposed amendments to—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

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THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended – in the provisions relating to the Counsellors and Psychologists Act, No. 14 of 2014, the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

The amendment is necessary since the fourth schedule will be no longer applicable. The fourth schedule provides for the meetings of the counsellors and psychologists society.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, this society is proposed to be abolished under the Bill. But I might withdraw that amendment because this House has returned the society. It will not make sense.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Chair, it is in order to withdraw it.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Members, we are now moving to the provisions relating to the Physiotherapists Act No. 20 of 2014. Look at page 1379 of the Order Paper.

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I beg to move: THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill is amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended —

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended —

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

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THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

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THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

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(Question, that the new section be read a Second Time, proposed) (Question, that the new section be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, in the proposed amendments to the Clinical Officers

Act, No.20 of 2017, the Schedule of the Bill be amended—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: What is your point of order, Hon. Millie Odhiambo?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Hon. Sabina Chege has moved 4 (e) which talks about the Part IV. We are moving straight to (g) . I do not know what we intend to do with (f) . We have jumped from (e) to

I have been very alert. The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Section 20 which we are now going to speaks to

(f)

.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. Maybe, for purposes of the future, I encourage that we do what we have done in the past, especially when we have new clauses. They should come towards the end. We now have a mix of things; new clauses and sections. It gets a bit confusing. We need to solve that for the future.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Chair.

Clinical Officers

Act, Section 20

(i)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, in the Bill, we had said clearly that licensed clinical officers can examine, diagnose, order laboratory, prescribe treatment, as well as perform invasive procedures according to their scope of training. By deleting that, it will mean that those important cadres in the implementation of the Universal Health Care (UHC) will not be able to do cataract removal, ENT, anaesthesia, C-sections and many others. This is misplaced. It was stated well in the Bill and it should remain that way.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I support the Committee in its proposal to remove “invasive” and leave “procedures”. When we talk of invasive procedures, it means you are opening up somebody and doing some operations. When we say “procedure”, we give them a leeway. For example, there are clinical officers who have done cataract surgery and they are able to do whatever is outside the eye but they cannot go inside. If they go inside the eye, it becomes invasive. That is an ophthalmologist speciality.

I do not want people to get this wrongly. For you to be a medical doctor, you have to do anatomy. You have to dissect a dead body. A clinical officer does not dissect a dead body. We do not want to expose Kenyans to health risks. When we say you are a surgeon, it means you have done anatomy. Basically, you have dissected the human body during your studies for a basic degree. When you do your masters, you must again do anatomy in order to become good. You may then be allowed to operate on a human being. When we say we want to allow them to do procedures… Even if a clinical officer trains to do obstetrics or gynaecology, he or she can only assist in evacuation, say, when a mother with a retained placenta or incomplete abortion comes to hospital. A clinical officer cannot do caesarean section. It is not possible. We should not expose Kenyans to health risks.

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Very well. Let me give a chance to one of the Members here. Hon. Onyonka, I am sure you want Hon. Millie Odhiambo to start.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I stand to oppose for the reasons given by Hon. (Dr.) Robert Pukose. The reason is that there is a difference between what we say and what appears in the law. When we define the way he has defined, we are defining it here on the air. It is not law. In fact, when he talks about evacuation, my English understanding is that it is invasive. A lot of reproductive procedures are that.

No, I am telling you from my English understanding, not medical. When you will be interpreting the law, the first rule of interpretation is the plain English meaning, not medical meaning. It is plain English meaning. So, when you talk about invasion, what I would have encouraged the medical people to do is to provide exclusion. Chair, please understand us instead of lobbying. I want you as a lawyer to listen to me. The best way you should have done this is exclusion. What you would have done by exclusion, because we also want our patients to be safe, is to provide that certain practitioners shall be excluded from performing surgeries. Why can we not just provide that? When we talk about invasion and say “invasion that excludes”…

Yes. We agree that they cannot do surgery.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Proceed, Hon. Millie.

But, when you talk about “invasive”, it is what I am telling the Chair. Even if they wanted to say “invasive” as per what they are talking about, then they should have included it in the definition section. Chair, I want you to listen to me even if you disagree with me. You should have provided what “invasion” means in the definition section. Otherwise, even if you defeat this, procedure means much. What is procedure? Even a surgery is a procedure.

Hon. Aden Duale

(Off-record)

No! It is not by medics. It is lawyers who interpret, not the medical people. So, let the Leader of the Majority Party stop misleading us here.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Very well. I will still give more chances on this one. We had said two persons for the others, but I will give a chance to one or two other Members. I will come to you Hon. Onyonka after giving the Leader of the Majority Party.

Let us deal with this matter when we are very sober. We should have no interest. I want the medical doctors to listen to me. The amendment is on my Bill. So, the Committee is amending a provision in the Bill. I am convinced as the Mover. Why do we have this amalgamation of these health laws? As we prepare our people for a

A certified version of this Report universal healthcare, we must make sure there is safety and standard, particularly in the rural areas. We do not want anything else.

Hon. (Ms.) Odhiambo-Mabona (Suba North, ODM) (Off-record)

You listen to me! I have listened to you!

I have the Floor and you have no choice but to listen to me. It is late in the night.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Please proceed. Hon. Leader of the Majority Party proceed! You have the Floor. We will give other persons.

There is no need of being an irritant. I come from a background where I do not deal with hecklers in the house. You are heckling. I deal with very respectable women.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Order, Leader of the Majority Party. Please utilise your space. You have the Floor. Prosecute your case so that we can get to the next person.

Oooh! I have very respectable women in my home. A clinical officer…

On a point of order. We do not need respectable women. We just need women who can take on men.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: The Leader of the Majority Party, please, take your space and prosecute your case so that we can go to the next person.

A clinical officer licensed under this Act may, with the respect to patients, do an examination, do diagnostics, order laboratory and emerging investigations, prescribe treatment and above all, perform procedures. We know in medical term what procedures mean. I am not a medical doctor, but they can perform small procedures. For you to do invasive procedures, you must listen to what the surgeon has said. You must have specialised training. That is why we have issues in the rural parts where deaths occur because of professional negligence. This law wants to deal with that. I support and, as the Mover has proposed, I think we must remove the word ‘invasive’.

Let me declare that clinical officers, some of them even from my constituency, were texting me. I do not succumb to that. I follow the law in making laws. I do not act for anybody here.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Hon. Onyonka, I know there is a doctor in the name of Hon. Nyikal. Be brief so that we prosecute this matter briefly and move on.

I will be very brief. Hon. Temporary Deputy Chair, I would want to raise a very simple issue on record. The Leader of the Majority Party needs to consider that when we are in this House, we cannot be passing laws under any intimidation or prejudice. It must be debated and discussed on merit. If you look at the description of what an invasive procedure is - and Dr. Nyikal and many other doctors are

A certified version of this Report here... Currently in the Kenyan medical field, the law allows a clinical officer who has done a diploma to actually conduct an invasive procedure. The reason why we have been having the issue of clinical officers who have diplomas conducting those procedures is this: We do not have enough doctors to do those procedures. That is why we are getting doctors from Cuba.

Secondly, an invasive procedure, for example, involves suturing. It is an invasive procedure. If somebody breaks their leg, before the doctor can come, the clinical officer can actually handle the fracture. Right now, in the health centers I have in my place, they are actually doing that right now. The reason we are having problems with the medical fraternity and malpractices is because of training and lack of facilities. What I am saying is simple. Let us not prejudice the diploma holders. Let us not prejudice our nurses. Let us give them exclusivity and be clear on what they can do. If you make a blanket law which says they cannot have any procedures which are invasive, it is going to be unfair to our professions.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): We have two quick ones. Hon. Nyikal, then one more, then we make progress.

You know since I became a politician, I have learnt not to be emotional sometimes. We are fighting a war that does not exist. What invasive is doing, is actually limiting what the clinical officers will do. Procedures include suturing. My position would have been: Do procedures as per your training, then leave out the word “invasive”. It is the word “invasive” that is giving us problems. If we pass this with the word “invasive: there, then the next thing we are going to do is this: We are going to put a list. But if you say do procedures as per your training, everything is involved. I am not pre-empting debate but the next that I would have opposed is speciality. I would say: Do the procedures as per your training and speciality. Why are we putting words like “invasive”? So, in my opinion, we should leave out the word invasive and leave the clinical officers free to do everything they want to do according to their training.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: We have to bring this to some closure. Hon. Rasso.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I want to support the amendment. The laws that we make are not for the elites but for the commoners. When we are prescriptive in the laws that we pass, we make a big mistake. I think the medical practitioners live in strata. It is known what surgeons, clinical officers and nurses do. For us to sit here and try to prescribe is a big mistake. When we say a clinical officer should do this but should not do invasive, basically we are saying they do everything but not surgery. If that is not what his profession calls him to do, then what law are we trying to prescribe here? Anything that we pass in this law, let us not allow even a single word that is going to cause confusion to pass.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Finally Chair.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I am glad Members have a lot of enthusiasm about this issue. I want to make it very clear that this provision is going to read this way:

A clinical officer licensed under this Act may with respect to patient—

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I just wanted to say that if speciality is there, it is okay. I just wanted to throw in a word of caution. There is something Hon. Nyikal has said that we should take seriously: leaving the word “procedure” without a definition. As a lawyer, I can tell you that it is even worse than the invasive that we are running away from.

Clinical Officers

Act, Section 20

(iii)

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: Speak to Sub-section

(iii)

.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, if we were to delete “and speciality”… I propose to withdraw. When we say “perform procedures as per their scope of training and speciality” we end it there. Again, I want to tell Dr. Nyikal that it is not just procedures, it is procedures as per their scope of training and speciality. So, I withdraw the amendment that seeks to delete “speciality”.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: That is considered withdrawn.

by Hon. (Ms.) Sabina Chege withdrawn)Hon. Pukose, you had an amendment to Section 20 as well.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I have the same amendment which has been moved by the Committee and which I agree with. I just want to make a statement that in a hospital, there is an order in which patients are looked at, treated and operated. You cannot just come and say the law allows you to do it when you are not trained and certified to do that. There is a limit and that is why we have the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Board to rein in those who would want to practise out of what they have not been trained on.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: So, you drop your amendment?

Yes I agree with the Committee.

A certified version of this Report Provisions relating to Clinical Officers (Training, Registration and Licensing) Act,

Section 20 as amended agreed to) (Section 34 agreed to) Clinical Officers (Training, Registration and Licensing) Act, New Section 23 A

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

A certified version of this Report Hon. Millie Odhiambo mentioned earlier. So, we will go back to that Pharmacy and Poisons Act. Cap. 244. There are five new sections.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

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The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move;

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

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(Question, that the new section be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule be amended -

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new clause immediately after Clause 2 – Transition

Yes, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I was putting my papers in place so that I can go home.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 1 of the Bill be amended by inserting the words “and shall come into force upon publication” immediately after the words “Health Laws (Amendment) Act, 2018”;

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This amendment seeks to have all the provisions contained in the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill come into effect immediately upon publication in the Gazette and not after 14 days of publication. The reason is that Article 116 (2) of the Constitution provides that an Act of Parliament comes into force on the 14th day after its publication in the Gazette Notice, unless that Act stipulates a different date or time at which it comes into force. The amendment to Clause 1 of the Bill, therefore, seeks to provide for a different date on which the Act will come into force, which is immediately upon publication in the Gazette.

(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be inserted be inserted, put and agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee reports to the House its consideration of the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.14 of 2018) , and its approval thereof with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report to the House that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.14 of 2018) and approved the same with amendments.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the House in the said Report.

I request Hon. Nyikal to second the Motion for agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House.

I second.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Motion for agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House be amended by inserting the words, “subject to re-committal of Sections 2 and 3B in the Pharmacy and Poisons Act, Cap.244 and Sections 2, 3A and Section 4 of the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Act, Cap.253 and Sections 11 and the new sub-sections 1 and 4 of the Nurses Act, Cap.257.

I ask Hon. Millie Odhiambo to second.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to second.

A certified version of this Report Pharmacy and Poisons Act, Cap. 244, Section 2

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended–

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Pharmacy and Poisons Act, Cap 244 be further amended in the proposed new section 3B−

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be further amended –

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended-

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman. I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I seek further clarification as to what this exactly means.

The Temporary Deputy Chairman

: That is what the Chair did.

To me, there is a clear difference when you say “has a degree in medicine or dentistry” as opposed to saying “a medical practitioner of good standing”. That is what you are putting in. Read it, please.

I have said this amendment is to remove the error previously providing that the chairperson of the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council must be a specialist medical or dental practitioner with a degree in medicine. Since the amended Section 2 of the Act now provides for the definition of a specialist medical practitioner or dentist as a person who has completed post-graduate training in medicine or dentistry, it will be sufficient to have the qualification of the chairperson simply as a specialist

Yes. We had quite a bit of debate on this yesterday. I think we agreed that this would be the neater way to do it. So, she has got it.

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(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) (Provisions relating to the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Act, Cap. 253, New Section 3A as amended agreed to) The Temporary Deputy Chairman (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Hon. Members, for your ease, Section 4 by Hon. Oluoch is on page 1422 in the Order Paper. Medical Practitioners and Dentists Act, Cap. 253, Section 4

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended -

I support this as I congratulate Hon. Oluoch. I remember a case when we put somebody through a disciplinary process and the hospitals declined to give the records and they said they are not under the jurisdiction of the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Board. This is a good amendment, I support it.

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(Provisions relating to the Medical Practitioners and Dentists Act, Cap. 253, Section 4 as amended agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move:

THAT, the Schedule to the Bill be amended –

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.14 of 2018) and its approval thereof with amendments.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Health Laws (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.14 of 2018) , and approved the same with amendments.

Hon. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.

Before I request Hon. Sabina Chege to second, I want to thank Members of the Health Committee; other Members, including Hon. Millie Odhiambo; our staff; the men and women from the Ministry of Health sitting at the Civil Servants Bench; Hon. Wamunyinyi, at least, today he has succeeded in making sure that the society is retained, and Hon. Onyonka, who has left. I want to thank everybody including the various chairpersons of the Committee of the whole

A certified version of this Report House - Hon. Cheboi, Hon. Mariru and you Temporary Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much. I request Hon. Sabina Chege to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I also echo the words of the Hon. Leader of the Majority Party. I recognise Hon. (Dr.) Pukose who, somehow, the Hon. Leader of the Majority Party chose not to recognise and instead recognised Hon. Millie Odhiambo. He said he has only one soft spot and we will confirm that.

So, I thank the Members of my Committee who have put this together. Special recognition to the ones who are in the House such as Hon. (Dr.) Nyikal, Hon. Peters Owino, Hon. Kwenya, Hon. Dahir and also the gracious lady. We have been accused as ladies that we do not stay much in Parliament, but we have two gracious ladies here. Hon. Mukami from Nyeri and Hon. Millie Odhiambo who was also very passionate and keen on following the procedures and ensuring that the laws were done in the right away.

So, I appreciate each one of you. Hon. Wamunyinyi, thank you for fighting but we might have to meet with you as a Committee so that we can look again at the Bill. I am sure this is not the end of it all. Hon. Chairpersons from the Hon. Speaker’ s panel starting with you Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Hon. Mariru and Hon. Cheboi, thank you. The staff of Parliament, but with special recognition to the gracious ladies who are sitting there next to the Chairperson, you have done a great job in guiding us. The clerk and the legal officer from my Committee, thank you for offering guidance to us when things were overwhelming.

Thank you, staff from the Ministry of Health for staying up to this time. You now know how laws are done. You have seen MPs work after 9.00 p.m. Some members of our families might be wondering where we went. So, it is good that they know we are still working. Dinner is on me. Once we finish, we will see whether gizzards and tea can be served. Hon. Members, thank you for the moral support. We would not have made it without you.

Thank you. Enjoy your recess and I second. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Hon. Members, just before I propose the Question, I would also like to join and congratulate Members for a good job well done, and for the dedication and sitting for long hours. This is the mandate that the people of Kenya have given us and I think today we have served that mandate well. May God bless you as you enjoy your short recess.

The Hon. Leader of the Majority Party, may Allah be with you. You have done well.

Hon. Members, I will allow a few Members just because it is what it is. Especially the Hon. Member for Ndaragwa , I notice that you have not said much today and you have been here the whole evening. I will give you the first bite at it. Just one minute.

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Let us have Hon. Mukami, the Member for Nyeri.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I thank the Committee for doing a good job. I have learnt a lot from other Members and especially Hon. Millie on the word ‘invasive’.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker.