Thursday, 7th November 2019

Hon. Members, we do not seem to have the required quorum. Can you ring the bell?

Hon. Members, I am informed by the Serjeant-At-Arms that we now have quorum. We can commence business

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

Six Reports, one Bill and one Resolution adopted by the East African Legislative Assembly (EALA) at its 1st Meeting of the 3rd Session of the 4th Assembly held in Arusha, United Republic of Tanzania, from 16th September to 5th October, 2019 as follows –

Next Order.

The first Question is by the Member for Kajiado Central, Hon. Memusi. Question No.463/2019

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Forestry the following Question:

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Environment and Natural Resources.

The next Question is by the Member for Mathioya, Hon. Kimari Kihara, who has requested for its deferment and the request has been acceded to.

Question No.479/2019

Hon. Speaker, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Industry, Trade and Cooperatives the following Question:

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The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives. The last Question is by the Member for Kuria East.

Question No.481/2019

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to ask Question No.481/2019 to the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Planning.

The Question is referred to the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning.

That marks the end of Question Time.

The first one is by Hon. Paul Katana, Member for Kaloleni.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to request for a Statement on disbursement of funds from the Equalisation Fund.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, regarding disbursement of money from the Equalisation Fund.

Hon. Speaker, Article 204 (1) of the Constitution, 2010 establishes an Equalisation Fund into which shall be paid one half per cent of all the revenue collected by the national government each year, calculated on the basis of the most recent audited accounts of revenue received, as approved by this House.

Hon. Speaker, it is worrying to note that for the last three consecutive financial years that is, 2016/2017, 2017/2018 and 2018/2019, funds from the Equalisation Fund have not been disbursed for implementation of projects as contemplated in Article 204 (2) of the Constitution. Funds from the said Fund were only disbursed in one financial year and currently, most projects earmarked in the marginalised areas have stalled or not initiated.

A certified version of this Report Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee on:

Well, I do not see the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. I suppose today being 7th November there is something happening within the City of Nairobi. I have heard some of you whisper that he could be in somebody’s bedroom. Is the Vice- Chair there? Maybe the Leader of the Majority Party will take up the Statement sought by Hon. Katana, Member for Kaloleni on disbursement of Equalisation Fund together with the Chair of Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Hon. Speaker, the Bill by Hon. Kamket on Equalisation Fund is ready and we will bring it next week. I will also pass the message to Hon. Ichung’wah because there are people who are in Kibra and they have a stake there. Hon. Speaker, now that we stood for family values and there will be no alteration of the Calendar then next Tuesday we will give a Statement.

Hon. Members, before we proceed allow me to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of pupils from Muhindi Primary School, Gatundu North Constituency, Kiambu County. They are welcome to observe the proceedings in the House this afternoon. Next Statement is by the Member for Laikipia County, Hon. Waruguru Catherine.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee regarding delay in disbursement of National Government Affirmative Action Fund. Hon. Speaker, the National Government Affirmative Action Fund is part of the National Government’s design in addressing the plight of vulnerable groups in our society. This is to enhance access to financial resources for socio-economic empowerment among women, youth, people living with disability, needy children and the elderly. Hon. Speaker, further, it is through the National Government Affirmative Action Fund that many of our young men and women have found a reliable avenue for promoting their enterprises and value addition initiatives. Following the critical role of the affirmative action initiatives in our societies, it is important to ensure timeliness and efficiency in the disbursement of such funds. Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee on when the National Government Affirmative Action funds meant for the first and second quarters of the 2019/20 Financial Year are expected to be disbursed? Thank you, Honorable Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Omulele.

Hon. Speaker, you have just given direction for a Question that has been asked by my brother and nominated Member, Hon. Korir, to the Kenya Bureau of Standards in regard to substandard or ineffective pharmaceutical products.

A certified version of this Report Hon. Speaker, the proper body that deals with standards concerning pharmaceuticals is the Pharmacy and Poisons Board. I think that Question will not be effectively dwelt with by the Kenya Bureau of Standards. The proper direction would be that the Question be directed to the Pharmacy and Poisons Board under the Ministry of Health.

Fortunately, the Hon. Member had also drawn my attention to that fact. In fact, I had told him to place a request for an intervention but I think he decided to sit on that right. Hon. Keter, you cannot play around with my mind. You either have your card or not because you are not the Member for Baringo. How is it that your card is not showing on intervention? Hon. Keter proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Due to the notification by my fellow Member that this Question might fall on the wrong body, I would like it to be referred to the Ministry of Health.

So, you have agreed with Hon. Omulele that this Question should be referred to the Departmental Committee on Health?

Yes, because it talks about post-surveillance of pharmaceutical drugs.

Yes, that is the policy point you had raised which is what Hon. Omulele has said. Therefore, the Clerk’s Office is accordingly directed to refer the Question to the Departmental Committee on Health to deal with.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

The Statement by Hon. Waruguru was directed to the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee (BAC) , noting the same circumstance with the first one. What I do not know is whether the Chair is going to be ready with the Statement by Tuesday as the Leader of the Majority Party has said. Maybe the Leader of the Majority Party can confirm that also. It is also to the BAC on the release of the National Government Affirmative Action Fund (NGAAF) .

I think NGAAF is under Hon. Wario. That is the Committee that oversees that Fund. The Chair of the Committee on the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) is here. The BAC just appropriates. So, Hon. Wario should tell us when the NGAAF will be released because the Cabinet Secretary in charge of that reports to that Committee. The NGAAF comes under the Departmental Committee on Labour and Social Welfare. The Statement will come from the National Treasury to the BAC and maybe if the Statement can be given to me, I will send it to the CS to sign.

Just like the other one.

We will tell the Chair to read the Statement on Tuesday. The last request for a Statement is by Hon.

(Maj)

Bashir Abdullaih, Member for Mandera North.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. This is a request for Statement on the National Population and Housing results of 2019 Census.

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Hon. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(c), I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning regarding the National Population and Housing results of 2019 Census recently released by Kenya National Bureau of Statistics (KNBS). The recent figures released by the KNBS have elicited complaints and protests across the country. The statistics do not reflect the findings of a pre-census report released early this year by KNBS, which indicated the various regions as having registered growth.

Hon. Speaker, it is against this background that I seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning on the following:

The Statement request goes to the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning. Hon. Limo is the Chairman. The Vice-Chair is Hon. Ndirangu Waihenya, who represents a constituency in Nairobi and might, therefore, got hypnotised to go into some other place within Nairobi. Again, the burden falls on the Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, the Chair for Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, Hon. Limo was around. I am sure he is not in Kibra. He will also give the Statement maybe next week Thursday. This is a straightforward Statement.

Before we move to the next Order, the Leader of the Majority Party will give the Statement.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (a) , I rise to give a Statement on behalf of the House Business Committee (HBC) following its meeting held on Tuesday, 5th November 2019 and the withdrawal of the

Motion on the alteration of the Calendar yesterday. Now we are back to our business next week.

Hon. Wamalwa, you have an intervention. Hon. (Dr.) Chris Wamalwa

: Hon. Speaker, I take this opportunity to thank you for the decision. I just got a text message from one of my friends who is a Member of Parliament in America and is a Republican. He has just told me to congratulate you and Hon. Duale for standing up for the family. I did not know that that clip had gone viral. I was just sharing it with Nuncio who is the official ambassador of the Vatican and he was very excited. As Africans, we must stand for family values. I salute you for that and thank Hon. Shamalla because she brought this matter up.

As His Excellency the President said before, this country has a Constitution which we cannot go against. We respect the family. We have no business with issues of gayism, lesbianism and abortion. We are not there. I thank every Kenyan for that. There is freedom of association. We will be there to listen to them. Besides that, we will have some side activities that will be going on at the Holy Family Basilica and the Catholic University of East Africa. You are also invited.

I see an intervention from Hon. (Dr.) Eseli. Hon. (Dr.) Eseli Simiyu

: I would like to congratulate you and Hon. Duale, the Leader of the Majority Party. I wish we had the same enthusiasm with regard to family values, Christianity and Islam when we are fighting thieves and tribalists. Otherwise, it all sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Let us have Hon. Jude Njomo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I want to add my voice to this as a Member of the Pan African Parliament.

It is very clear that this meeting was destined for Africa for particular reasons. It is only the African continent that has a positive population growth. All the other continents are declining. It is only in Africa where lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBTQ) and all those businesses are not appreciated. We do not even have a vocabulary for it. Those people are trying to bring a meeting here so that we can start talking about it. As we talk about it, we think it is becoming easier and easier. They want to make it a habit. It is abhorred by our culture. We do not have a place for it. We should not appreciate it at all. I ask the Members of Parliament who will go for those meetings to make it clear that there is no room in Kenya or Africa for gayism. There is no room.

Secondly…

Sorry. There is no debate on this, Hon. Jude Njomo. I thought it was an intervention as if something was out of order.

I just wanted to enlighten the Members.

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No need. They are very enlightened. Anybody you see walking through that door getting into this hallowed Chamber is very enlightened. Those that brought them here know that the person is very enlightened. Let us just leave it there. Thank you for your comments.

Next Order.

You can take a seat near there so that we conclude business. Very well, Hon. Members.

Not many Members look at the Order Paper because it is not on paper. You can still get it through your tablets. What I am holding is available on the tablet before you.

The issue I want Members to understand is that the Question is to be put for agreement with the Committee of the whole House but there is a proposed amendment for re-committal. Therefore, I want to first put the Question for agreement to the proposed amendment for re- committal. If that is carried, the House will go into the Committee of the whole House after which we will go back to the whole House for agreement. I hope every Member is fully enlightened on the first Question.

The proposed amendment is defeated. Therefore, that having been lost, the House takes a decision. We now revert to the original Motion.

Hon. Speaker, even the owner of the re- committal is not in the House. Hon. Osotsi is in Kibra. It is good that it has suffered that fate. The owner is not here.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move that the Data Protection Bill (National Assembly Bill No.44 of 2019) be now read the Third Time. I also request the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation, Hon. Kisang, to second.

Hon. Speaker, I take this opportunity to second and thank all the Members of my Committee and all those who contributed to this Bill.

I beg to second.

Let me just repeat as I have said in the recent past. I also congratulate all the Members that remained in the House during the Committee of the whole House to consider the various proposals contained in this Bill. If everybody has read through the Bill, they would understand its importance and would have been around. I have requested the media to now

A certified version of this Report concentrate more on the business transacted when the House resolves into the Committee of the whole House because that is the time when we make laws. The Second Reading is debate where Members give intentions of what they propose to amend later. The actual business of making the law is when the House resolves into Committee of the whole House.

Put the Question.

Can I put the Question?

Yes.

Very well. I have already confirmed through the Clerks-at-the-Table that the House has quorum as it is required by the Constitution.

Next Order.

Who was on the Floor?

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Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations, moved the Motion and was seconded by Hon.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Motion which is before the House on the Ratification of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Kenya and the Government of the Republic of South Africa on Defence Co- operation. This Agreement is very important for this country in security matters. We have to co- operate with other nations at all times on matters that touch on security and safety of our country, and especially on defence.

It is very important for the country and the citizens to note that ratification of international agreements do not make them automatically enforceable in the country as law, even if they are ratified by our Government. They take the force of law once they are brought into this House. The House debates them and approves that they should be ratified to become part and parcel of our international treaties. This is what is happening here. Kenya and South Africa have entered into an agreement to co-operate on defence matters. This is the reason this House was asked to ratify this Agreement. In view of the importance of this Agreement and what this House has to do, I support the Motion and urge the House to adopt it.

Thank you.

Hon. Shamalla.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support the Motion. I am aware that negotiations on defence co-operation have been going on since 2007. It was re-signed by South Africa in February 2019. I was assured by the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations that the issues and reservations that the Government of the Republic of Kenya had were addressed.

With those few remarks, I support the Motion.

Member for Nyando.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am here to support the adoption of this Motion. It is true the new world challenge today is security with the emergence of indoctrinated groupings such as Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab and many others. Considering that South Africa operates on a larger economic pie than us, this ratification on defence co-operation will go a long way to address these emerging challenges.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker. I support the Motion.

Member for Sotik.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I also rise to support the Motion. The world is changing a lot. The Motion comes in handy in that perspective to look at what is happening around the world.

I support the Motion. Thank you very much.

Member for Kiminini.

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Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to support this Motion. It is important to know that any international treaty or agreement that Kenya is part and parcel of must be ratified by this House for it to enjoy the full force of law. Many international treaties or agreements take too long to come to this House for ratification. So, it is my humble request that the Executive - I am sure they are listening - expedites their ratification, so that after they are signed, they do not take long to be brought to this House.

For instance, this Agreement will add a lot of value in the improvement of defence. There will be technological transfer and benchmarking. We know that South Africa has an advantage that Kenya can learn from. I am requesting the Members to support this Motion. It seems that everyone is supporting it. If possible, we can move to the next business.

I thank you, Hon. Speaker. I support the Motion.

You have spoken for one minute and seven seconds. Member for Kirinyaga Central.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me this chance to add my voice to support this important Motion. We all know that security and defence matters are very important to the country. It is always important for countries to talk and have bilateral agreements.

With those very few remarks, it is really important for us to ratify this Agreement. I support it. Thank you.

You have spoken for 25 seconds. Member for Mwingi West.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker for giving me the opportunity to support this Motion. I have noted that the ratification of this Agreement is very important when it comes to technological transfer and benchmarking. We have been facing a lot of insecurity challenges which are mainly caused by our neighbouring countries. By ratifying this Agreement between Kenya and South Africa, which has more technological advancement than us, we will benefit more.

We have many agreements that need to be passed. I request the Cabinet Secretaries and the relevant committees to make sure that these agreements are expedited for the benefit of our country and other bilateral agreements.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. With those few remarks, I support the Motion.

You have spoken for 57 seconds. I expect that Members have read the Report. However, it looks like we are speaking generally. In Kiswahili, they say “mazungumzo baada ya habari”. Proceed, Member for Lamu.

Asante Mhe. Spika. Naunga mkono. Usalama ni muhimu. Tushirikiane tusonge mbele.

Mbali na kule South Africa, hapa Kenya ukosefu wa usalama unachangia mambo mengine ambayo hayatusaidii. Kwa mfano, kwenye shughuli ya kuhesabu watu, wakazi wa Lamu tumeathirika sana kwa sababu ya hali mbaya ya usalama. Maafisa wahusika hawakuenda kuhesabu watu katika sehemu nyingine wakihofia usalama wao. Hivyo basi, watu wa Lamu County tunaonekana kuwa wachache. Tuko wengi lakini kwa sababu ya ukosefu wa usalama maafisa wahusika hawakuenda katika sehemu za Msitu wa Boni kama vile Sadan na Vumbe kuhesabu watu. Kuna sehemu nyingi ambazo watu huenda mashambani kulima. Maafisa wa census hawakufika huko kuwahesabu watu. Kisha wakasema watu wa Lamu ni wachache zaidi Kenya. Hiyo inaenda kutuathiri sana. Kihistoria, Lamu tumekuwa na maeneo Bunge mawili. Tunatishiwa na hiki kiwango cha watu. Tuko taabani na matatizo mengi. Hayo maeneo Bunge mawili yakiondolewa, itatuathiri zaidi.

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Ni muhimu kuunga usalama mkono. Asante.

Afrika Kusini wanakuja kutusaidia kuhesabu watu?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me a chance to speak on this Motion. I rise to support.

Collaborations and agreements between nations on security, information technology and in particular defence training, are critical to any nation. Kenya in the past has been involved with many other countries. We have had agreements with the British Army, Americans and our military access training to get more advanced technologies. In a changing world where security is extremely critical, it is important for nations to continue collaborating. Kenya has been at the forefront even in peace keeping missions across the world. We want to see a transformed world that is moving in the same direction.

With those remarks, I support.

You have one minute and five seconds, Member for Ainabkoi.

Hon. Speaker, I rise to support. With a lot of humility, I urge the Members that we move with speed since defence is key in any Government. An ICT platform, infrastructure, globalisation and training are key. South Africa is number one in Africa, and we are number two in ICT infrastructure.

Hon. Speaker, that is my statement. The Member can Google it. The great Socrates once said that true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing. Therefore, let us not volunteer information. Instead, let us learn more than we volunteer.

I support with a lot of speed.

One minute ten seconds. Hon. Members, I still see requests. I do not know how much you can say in 25 seconds.

Member for Kilifi North.

Hon. Speaker, I also support this Motion. The way the world is moving, there is need to have defence and security, so that the world is brought together and people can co-ordinate in many things. Coordinating and working together with South Africa gives this country an edge in security. Kenya is faced with a lot of security challenges emanating from the activities of Al Shabaab, Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and other terrorist groups. All these things give the world a problem and can only be won when we work together within the African Continent.

In that spirit, I also want to support, with speed, like my brother, Hon. Chepkut.

Forty six seconds. Hon. Members, let me refresh your memory about a Motion you passed here on 13th February 2019, which is based on the provisions of Standing Order 97. That Motion reads as follows: -

THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 97

(4)

, each speech in a debate on any Motion, including a Special Motion

shall be limited in the following manner:

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A maximum of three hours with not more than twenty (20) minutes for the Mover and ten

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I am a Member of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations. The ratification of this treaty will be of great importance to this nation because the modus operandi of foreign military force giving a framework of how the host nation can undertake the relationship between the two. The treaty is concerned about the rights of citizens from the foreign force.

South Africa and Kenya have a cooperation that we all cherish. Recently, we saw how South Africa divers came in handy to help us when we had the tragedy of the ferry incident. We saw South Africa expertise, knowledge and skills that we wish to have transferred to us through this treaty.

This treaty will also give us the opportunity to know how to dispose military ware or fire force. If, today, a foreign country is given the opportunity to be in Kenya, they must be governed by the laws of this country in their undertakings. Therefore, this treaty recognises that we must respect the laws of the hosting country.

It gives the opportunity for every mission the military will undertake to be gazetted. They must be given a specific area of operation to avoid issues where military forces from outside, through exchange programmes, undertake their own military trainings and eventually leave dangerous weapons in a given area. Therefore, the Agreement ratifies that for any joint operation or singular by an accepted foreign military force must have a gazetted area. The said Treaty also provides a framework within which compensations have to be made and liabilities borne. There are liabilities to be borne by the hosting country and there are some to be undertaken by the foreign military that has been given permission to join in any operation. In Kenya, as we know it, we have challenges to do with Al-Shabaab. We have technological issues to address. We are now trying to upscale and modernise our forces. Most of our officers who are flying our military jets are trained in South Africa. Transfer of skills and joint practices will enhance this country’s expertise. In the military world, it is training that enhances an officer’s skills and workmanship.

Lastly, technologies are also changing. We use various technologies in the military to safeguard our security and to protect our borders and waters. Those who use modern technologies like satellites also come in handy. As a developing country, we found that this Treaty will be of help to us, especially now that we are going through modernisation. We thank the ministry so far. This issue has gone through public participation, got assent from the President through the Cabinet. We are now on the final stage of making it enforced through this Parliament.

As a Member of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations, I request my colleagues to note that for us to improve our forces and improve in all spheres of our power, we must co-operate with the nations which have gone ahead in technology.

With these few remarks, I support.

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It is not that I have not noticed that you used five minutes. The Member for Kwanza, you have the Floor.

Hon. Speaker, I rise to support this Motion. I wish to remind the House that South Africa and Kenya have had a long history of technological co-operation. I can remember because I read the history of this country that South Africans trekked all the way and ended up into my county of Trans-Nzoia. That is where they landed. I think that is the farthest they went towards the north. Of course, they started farming there. Most of the farming technology came from South Africa.

As my colleague has just mentioned, we had a problem in Mombasa where we were unable to retrieve bodies from the ocean for almost two weeks. We had to get assistance from South Africa. That means we cannot shy away from the fact that South Africa is technologically more advanced than us. Therefore, exchange in this programme is timely. I think it is upon us as a House to ratify this agreement. That will assist us to look at our current status in technology and awareness. I am aware some people have trained in South Africa in terms of military advancement. I know of somebody from my area, in fact, a relative, who has been in South Africa for almost four years and he is now based in Eastleigh. It is timely for us to ratify this Treaty, so that we can advance. Given the fact that Kenya is one of the fastest growing countries in technology, pairing with South Africa will be the right thing to do in order to move forward. We cannot advance in isolation. Picking on a country that is on this continent is a good thing to do. I want us to ratify this Agreement, so that it can take effect as soon as possible.

I support.

Let us hear Hon. Mbarire.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I too rise to support this Motion. I think it is important that the law provides that all treaties pass through Parliament, so that the voice of the people of Kenya can be heard in whatever treaties we may engage with as a nation.

We know the world is becoming a global village. It is now a global village. We all need each other to advance and learn from each other. Looking at the partnership between Kenya and South Africa, which is way ahead in terms of economy and technology, it is important for us to have this partnership, so that we can gain from them. I also believe South Africa has a lot to learn from Kenya. If you are to look at it seriously, in terms of real engagement out there, in the AU and Somalia, I think Kenya has more experience than South Africa. Therefore, there will be lessons learnt and best practices that they can exchange. Because of the sensitivity of that partnership, it is important that there are clearly laid down regulations and rules that must be followed, so that we do not end up in an engagement that can cause conflict between two very friendly nations.

In the implementation of this Treaty, I hope we will see better performance and a better running of our defence systems as a nation. We have seen that, even in terms of fighting terrorism, we have really advanced. We have better trained security officers who know how to engage and how to respond fast to such situations. We had the experience of the Dusit Hotel attack that happened just the other day and the way they responded showed that we are better trained and more equipped to deal with such situations than we were during the Westgate attack.

I hope that this engagement will make things better for our officers here in Kenya and even learn from experiences in South Africa which may not be having challenges like we have of terrorism. Obviously, they will also learn a few things because you never know about tomorrow as terrorism continues to spread across the globe.

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With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Hon. Mutavi, you have the Floor.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. As a Member of the Committee, I can state that we did a thorough study on the Defence Agreement between Kenya and South Africa. Defence agreements are very important to any country. They, among other things, enable transfer of knowledge, capacity building and sharing of information. This is not the first agreement this country has entered into. To mention but a few, we have an agreement with the East African Defence Protocol, the Western Indian Ocean Maritime Agreement and agreements with Denmark, the United Kingdom, among others. All these agreements are two-way. They are for the benefit of the signatory countries.

The Committee confirmed that the Attorney- General had reviewed the agreement and gave his approval. So, in terms of issues of legality, it does not contradict any of our laws.

On the benefits, South Africa is a regional economic and military power. Kenya is an economic power on the East African side. We also invest heavily in our defence forces. One of the objectives of this Agreement is to counter-piracy and other maritime safety activities. We know that on the war against drugs and piracy, nations must cooperate. On the war against terror, countries must put their resources together. So, one of the main objectives of this Agreement is to fight those wars.

Again, if we are to say this is a middle income economy, we must also industrialise. One of the objectives of this Agreement is to encourage and facilitate industrial cooperation between respective industries in the two countries in the fields of defence and related research development and procurement of defence equipment. We are looking at a situation where in some years to come, not far from now, this country must be able to manufacture its own basic equipment like armoured vehicles and ships.

Another benefit of this Agreement is exchange of military information and development of security training. So, without repeating what other Members have said, I urge this House to support the ratification of this Agreement because it is for the benefit of this great nation.

I support.

Let us now hear the Member for Central Imenti.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I support the Motion as it is. This Motion deals with the relationship between Kenya and South Africa militarily. As it is, Kenya is a developing country. It is a third world county compared to South Africa, which is advanced militarily, economically and technologically.

There will be many advantages if Kenya relates with South Africa military-wise. If we ratify the Agreement that is before this House, we will gain a lot. Military-wise, South Africa has advanced. It can be equated to first world countries. Militarily, South Africa is a nuclear country and we are far from that. On advanced training, there are some conflicting reports that the divers who came to assist us in Likoni to retrieve the bodies and the vehicle that fell into the ocean were trained at the Kenya Navy Mtongwe Base in Mombasa. They were South African divers trained in Kenya. After getting the basic training here, they went to South Africa and advanced their training. That is why they were able to come and assist us. That means that we have basic knowledge, but how to advance it is the problem. If we have a relationship with South Africa, we will be able to advance this basic knowledge.

This Agreement is well articulated. It gives each partner country a responsibility of what it is supposed to do in case of any eventuality when they relate. For example, on medical facilities, in case South African personnel are in Kenya and they incur some injuries, it is

A certified version of this Report articulated that the mother country will take care of its personnel. So, South Africa will take care of its personnel and Kenya will do the same to her personnel. In the Agreement, we do not expect the Kenya military personnel to establish camps in South Africa. However, we expect South Africans to come and establish some military camps in Kenya because we are behind them in military advancement. If they establish military training camps in Kenya, we will gain a lot economically, medically, militarily and agriculturally. The personnel that will be in Kenya will enjoy what we have here in terms of agricultural products.

If you look at the Agreement thoroughly, Kenya is meant to gain. For example, when we have a problem in our maritime field, like we have a problem along our coast with Somalia, the Agreement says that at some stage, we can have agreements that will involve South Africans in our own issues. Therefore, this Agreement is to the advantage of Kenya.

I support it.

Very well. There being no other request to contribute, the only request that is there is by a Member who has already spoken, namely, the Member for Kirinyaga Central, I hereby call upon the Mover to reply. Hon. Mwathi, you are the one to reply on behalf of the Committee. Proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to reply. I thank all the Members for the overwhelming support they have given to this Agreement in terms of the provisions that are contained herein. That means that they really care about the security of this nation. They want our forces to advance, exchange information and do capacity building with our partners, South Africa. I want to echo the sentiments of Hon. Mbarire that we will also learn from our forces on what they are better off than South African forces.

Just like I said when I seconded this Motion, it is important for the Members to know that this Motion was subjected to public participation. It was advertised in two local dailies. We never received any memorandum from the public. That means that if there were issues, they would have come through. So, even as we pass and ratify this Agreement, we are sure that the public saw it and it had nothing to say in terms of any issues it would have raised.

We also engaged the Cabinet Secretary. She came and gave us her insights on the Agreement and why they came up with it. The nation requires some expertise that South Africa has. I want to remind the Members that it is only the other day that South Africans assisted us at the Likoni Ferry incident. They came in handy. I am sure we will learn something from them once we have the Agreement in place. We also engaged defence experts from the Ministry of Defence, who looked at the 15 Articles and told us that all the areas that were provided for in that Agreement are water tight and beneficial to the nations. We engaged the Attorney-General who had gone through the Agreement and told us that it largely complies with what we have in our statutes and our supreme law; the Constitution.

I want to allay some fears that probably we are entering into an Agreement that is going to cost us in terms of finances. It is important for the Members to know that none of the nations will use their finances to finance the other nation. So, we shall finance our own forces and South Africa will do the same for their forces. It is also important to know that this five-year Agreement allows for a renewal after five years. There is an exit clause. If any nation will feel that they need to leave after the five years, they can use that clause. But for the five years, I want to imagine the wisdom of the ones who crafted and put it intact, so that members are able to exchange and transfer knowledge between the two nations. So, the five years marriage of that agreement will then result in benefits to our troops.

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It is also important to mention one aspect. We know soldiers from South Africa may come here. In our laws, we provide for capital punishment while in South Africa they do not provide for that. In this agreement, we have two ways of dealing with those who are found culpable and are residents or soldiers of South Africa. We try them here but do not go the route of capital punishment. If we would find it difficult, then we have agreed that we shall repatriate those back to their country to be tried under their law. But it is agreed generally that most of the parts of the statute of South Africa, other than that one, in defence and military operation, are similar.

Members have spoken about the challenges we have. The sophistication of crime that is happening around the world, issues of terrorism, issues of Al Shabaab and piracy, which South Africa had already started addressing in their maritime boundaries as at now. We anticipate benefiting largely from what the South Africans are doing in that area.

Hon. Speaker, without taking much time, as I thank Members once more, I ask them, as the question is being put, let us ratify this agreement for the benefit of our troops.

With those many remarks, I beg to reply.

I keep to the provisions of Article 121 of the Constitution. We may not be able to put the question. So, we will defer putting of the question and move to the next order.

The Chairperson or representative or the Vice-Chair. Hon. Murugara.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion:

THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation on its consideration of the Retirement Benefits

(Amendment)

Regulations, 2019

and the Insurance

(Amendment)

Rules, 2019

, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 2nd October 2019, and pursuant to the provisions of Section 18 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 2013 and Standing Order 210

(4)

(b)

, annuls in entirety—

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second the Motion to adopt the Report on the annulment of these two legal notices herein before mentioned by Hon. George Murugara.

Very shortly and not to belabour the point, I wish to state that with regards to the retirement benefits, these are a social security network. They are a network that is akin to food security and even national security. It is owed to those who, while working, have diligently kept their part of the bargain and under various benefits schemes and while working for the employer. So, it stands to reason that the employer too must keep their part of the bargain. Indeed, in the presentation made by Eliud Oguto before the Committee on Delegated Legislation, it was clear that an amendment to unreasonably withhold contributions made by an employee even after that employee has opted to retire would be an injustice to that employee.

Furthermore, not to engage in public participation which has been a continuous oversight with regards to the various statutory instruments that have been brought to us is really going against the national values and principles as spelt out in Article 10 of the Constitution of this country. It is for these reasons that I second that the Committee do annul in its entirety these statutory instruments.

Also with regards to the crucial issue of boda bodas and Tuk Tuk business, we recognise as Members of Parliament and representatives of the people that, indeed, they must be regulated not only for the sake of the driver and the investor, but also for the fare-paying passenger.

However, any attempt to do this without the engagement of the crucial stakeholders is really unacceptable. The Committee noticed that, indeed, it was only one county, the County of Kiambu, that had engaged in some sort of consultations.

It is for these few remarks that I want to recognise and appreciate the fact that if regulations are not done in accordance with the Statutory Instruments Act, then we are left with no option but to recommend annulment.

With these few remarks, I second. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Order, Hon. Members! It is very important what Hon. Murugara indicated earlier about the statistics of the instruments that have been considered and annulled and others passed because it is important for the House to have that information.

Hon. Members, there seems to be only two Members who are keen to speak to this. From my screen here, we have Hon. Seroney and Hon. Wambugu. I guess any other Member who would like to speak to this would register that interest.

Shall we start with Hon. Seroney?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to speak to this Motion. I stand here as a member of the Committee on Delegated Legislation. I sincerely thank you to have allowed me to serve in this Committee because initially, I thought that this Committee was a dumping ground and I did not

A certified version of this Report like it. However, I have learnt much through this committee as far as the laws and regulations are concerned.

As I support this Motion, I want to confirm to the House that any regulation that does not have sufficient evidence over the issue of public participation with this Committee, we do not entertain it at all. That is because we will be violating Articles 10 and 118 of the Constitution of Kenya by not observing that there was evidence of public participation on that particular regulation. My free advice to all regulation-making authorities is that it could be easier for them to do what we call pre-publication scrutiny with the Committee before publishing it so that it can enable them to have their regulations passed in a very easy way. Instead, we have witnessed authorities rush to publish regulations before scrutinising. So, I urge all of them to engage the Committee before publishing the regulations.

I support the Report. I thank you. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Shall we have Hon. Wambugu Munene.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker for giving me this chance to also add my voice and urge the House to adopt this Report and support the call for annulment.

At the outset, it is clear that our own Constitution requires sufficient public participation. When you come to Legal Notice No.88 on retirement, there was a very serious issue which requires that if the amendments were carried, they were meant to deny the people who retire early their full benefits. This is because the current Act provides that if you go on early retirement, you are entitled to your full benefits and 50 per cent of the employer’s contribution. But the proposed amendment is going to remove those rights that, if you go on early retirement, you are not entitled to your contribution and 50 per cent of the employer’s contributions until you reach the retirement age.

Therefore, we thought with this kind of proposal, it was imperative for the regulation- making authority to ensure enough Kenyans participated. You will note that most Kenyans opt for early retirement. Therefore, it was important to reach as many Kenyans as possible. So, we thought this was too much and we should not go this way. More so, in the Regulations, there was an issue about cost. If you opt for early retirement, it means you will lose your benefits while you are waiting. These Regulations required an impact assessment to be done so that we could know the outcome. We have realised that this was not done and there was no Impact Assessment Report attached.

With those few considerations which are paramount and constitutional, we thought that it is not proper for us to allow these Regulations to go through. Therefore, we urge the House to annul them as recommended.

Going to the boda bodas and tuk tuks, it deals with insurance of the rider, owner and passenger. But we realised that there was no public participation done apart from Kiambu County and another amorphous organisation called the National Boda Boda Association which lacked proof of existence in law.

We know that boda bodas are everywhere in this country and the people who are in that business are young Kenyans in all counties. So, these kinds of regulations have a far-reaching impact on the population of Kenya. They only involved very few stakeholders while the real consumers - the boda boda riders - were not involved in making them. So, we thought the public participation done was very mediocre and thought that the regulations should be annulled.

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Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg the House to support this Report and annul these Regulations - especially the ones on boda bodas and tuk tuks because most boda boda riders and owners were not consulted. So, this will be an injustice to Kenyans and contrary to our laws and especially the Constitution, which requires adequate public participation.

I support. The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Patrick Mariru): Hon. Members, I saw Hon. Wamuchomba, Hon. Mwathi and Hon. Wambugu in a discussion. I suppose they were discussing these Regulations? It was the next one. I could tell there was a very animated discussion on the next item in the Order Paper. Hon. Members, there seems to be no other interest registered to speak to this particular one. We will go to the next one since quite a number have registered interest. In that case, I call upon the Mover to reply. Hon. Murugara.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. Let me begin by thanking the Members who have contributed towards supporting this Motion. These two Regulations are very important. However, our law is very clear that regulations made must comply with the Constitution, the parent Act and all the other Acts.

As Hon. Seroney has said, it is vitally important that public participation takes place because this is a constitutional right that has been given to every Kenyan such that, when we make laws as Parliament, the National Assembly and august House, every Kenyan must have a hand and say in the laws that we make. This is one way of ensuring that every Kenyan knows which laws are passed by the representatives they elected.

It is also important to note that the boda bodas and tuk tuks in Mombasa are used countrywide in the rural areas by citizens who are in the lower cadre of the economy. They rely on those boda bodas for transport. Nobody wishes an accident to himself or herself. It just happens. But if they are to be insured and safe then, people should participate in making Regulation so that, as they pay for insurance, they say they conceded to it. When they do not pay, they know they are breaking the law.

So, it is not closed for this Regulation-making authority. They should go back to the drawing board, comply with the law and bring back these Regulations. I can confirm to them that, if they are compliant, they will be approved by this House.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker. With those remarks, I beg to reply. The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Very well Hon. Murugara. We shall pend putting the Question on that particular item to a subsequent time.

Next Order!

A certified version of this Report there will come a time when this agenda will be in the Order Paper. Ensure you keep your thoughts around this fresh. There is nothing to revisit on this one.

Next Order! (Bill deferred)

Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I wish to request that we step down this Order because the Leader of the Majority Party did not expect us to get here and he is not in to take us through the Second Reading.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: Save for the reason that the Leader of the Majority Party was not expecting us to reach here is not as convincing but, anyway, we shall step this down as well. I guess we stepped down Order No.11 and moved faster than expected. We will step this down as well.

Next Order!

For the same reasons, I wish that we step down Order No.14.

The Temporary Deputy Speaker

: We shall step that down as well. Next Order!

The same fate befalls this particular Order. So, I request that the Order be stepped down until the next allotted day.

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The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Hon. Patrick Mariru): I will order as I had for the previous orders that, it be stepped down as well until such a time when the HBC shall reschedule again.

(Bill deferred)