Wednesday, 7th March, 2018

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate, today, Wednesday, 7th March, 2018:-

Next Order!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion on the establishment of an Ad hoc Committee to investigate and propose solutions to the challenges faced in the tea sector in our country:-

AWARE that Kenya is the third leading producer of black tea in the world, accounting for about 10 per cent of the total world tea production; COGNIZANT that tea contributes 4 per cent of Kenya’s GDP and 26 per cent of the country’s export earnings; FURTHER AWARE that the tea industry in Kenya supports close to 600,000 small-scale farmers and provides direct or indirect employment to over two million Kenyans; REALIZING that despite tea being Kenya’s most important cash crop, the Kenyan tea farmers, who are mainly small-scale farmers spread over fourteen counties, continue to receive a disproportionate return for the resources and time they put in tea production; FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGING that the sector continues to face numerous other challenges which require urgent intervention to ensure that this critical sector thrives for the benefit of our economy; CONCERNED that the current situation, if left unchecked, may lead to the collapse of this critical sector of Kenya’s economy and great loss to the nation, investors and the Kenyan taxpayers; NOW, THEREFORE, the Senate resolves to establish a Select Committee to conduct an inquiry into the challenges facing the tea sector in Kenya and to submit a Report to the Senate within five months, with specific legislative and policy interventions to address the problems facing the tea sector in Kenya; AND FURTHER; that the following Senators be appointed to the Select Committee:-

Next Order!

Where is Sen. Anwar Loitiptip? Please, proceed, Sen. Johnes Mwaruma.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources on the status of community ranches in Taita- Taveta. In the statement, the Chairperson should:-

Hold on so that we can get a response from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources.

Can we get an undertaking from the Chairperson or a Member of the Committee?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources, I undertake to give a response to the Statement in two weeks.

Is that okay, Sen. Mwaruma?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is okay.

Proceed with your second statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2)

Can we get an undertaking from the Chairperson or Member of the Committee on Tourism, Trade and Industrialization.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we undertake to give an answer in two weeks’ time.

Is that okay, Sen. Mwaruma?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is okay. I have another statement.

Please, proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources on the encroachment of private land at Ikanga, Taita Taveta County by the Kenya Airports Authority (KAA) . In the Statement, the Chairperson should:

Can we get an undertaking from the Chairperson or a Member of the Committee?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Once again, I stand in for my Chairperson. I undertake to respond to his statement in two weeks’ time.

Is two weeks okay with you?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is okay.

Sen. Loitiptip, you may take the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) , I rise to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Energy, Roads and Transportation on the delay in upgrading of the Lamu-Garsen Road. In the statement, the Chairperson should:

Where is the Chairperson or Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Energy, Roads and Transport?

\ Vice Chairperson, you have just walked in and there is a question by Sen. Loitiptip.

Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not get the question. I do not know how intensive it is.

Sen. Lelegwe, you are a Member of the Committee. Since the Vice Chairperson has just walked in, give an undertaking when the statement will be issued.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On behalf of the Chairperson and the Committee, I undertake to give the response in the next two weeks.

Is that okay?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, technically, I have to accept that.

March 7, 2018 SENATE DEBATES DISAPPEARANCE OF PATIENT LEMELOI SHONKO FROM COPTIC HOSPITAL

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) , I rise to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Health, regarding a missing patient from Coptic Hospital, Nairobi City County. In the statement, the Chairperson should explain:

Where is the Chairperson, Vice Chairperson or a Member of the Committee on Health?

The Senate Majority Leader, could you take that?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sympathise with the Senator for Kajiado County. I have heard the issues that he has raised in so far as the Government policy of protection of its citizens, whether they are in private or public hospitals. So, I will pass the message to the Chairperson. Since it is an urgent issue, hopefully, they can provide an answer within one week because it is straightforward to go to Ngong’ Road and get the information from the hospital.

Is that okay, Senator?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is okay.

Sen. Prengei, it is your turn now.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) , I rise to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare on the massive youth unemployment in Kenya.

In the statement, the Chairperson should:

Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on Social Welfare?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The questions asked are questions of fact; that is, youth population and percentage of unemployment. I can give an answer today. Could I go ahead?

According to the Standing Orders the statement is being requested from the Chairperson of the Committee. What is your intervention, Sen.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a bit worried. Sen. Sakaja is obviously a very well connected Senator within Government. However, he is not in the Executive, but in the Legislature. So, when a Member requests for a statement, it is really an inquisition on Government’s policies towards certain matters. Is he purporting to be Government and has the capacity to respond on behalf of it on the Floor of this House?

He is the Chairperson and the Standing Orders allow him to do so. However, for purposes of having a record for this House, I would ask that he brings the signed response tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if that is the kind of response that is needed, I cannot get it tomorrow. I take your guidance very seriously. However, according to our Standing Orders, a Member can request for a statement from a Chairperson. This statement is not being requested from the Government, but from the Chairperson of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, who is Sen. Sakaja. These are issues that are within the public purview. I can give the response.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I agree with Sen. Sakaja because when Chairpersons are asked questions and go to seek responses and do not get them in time, people complain. When the answer is available, people bring another problem. They should take it.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The reason why Members are asking here is so that the implementing authority can bring an answer that they can take responsibility for.

Now, the issue that Sen. Sakaja has raised is right also. That, if you ask questions that are on the Government website or already existing in Government records, you can answer on the spot. For example, if someone comes here and asks the Chair to confirm whether Parliamentary elections took place last year, you do not need a report from anybody. We are here because there was an election.

I am treading very carefully because you are the one who approves these statements. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, Sir, you review your policy of approval so that the part where there is statement of fact; the Members can be assisted to do away with them. Then the questions that relate to happenings that change with time and so forth, come to the

Floor for purposes of confirmation. I say that with utmost respect to the Speaker because it is your powers.

Sen. Pareno, I can see you want to make an intervention. Proceed, before Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am rising on a point of order. I have noticed as we came in that several Members have been using the exit route to access this House without even bowing to your seat. Is that in order? Three of them have walked in using the exit door.

Sen. Pareno, you are raising a different issue, but it is noted.

Proceed, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe you need to give directions on this matter. My reading of the Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) confirms that Sen. Haji and Sen. Sakaja are wrong. It reads:-

“A Senator may request for a statement from a Committee chairperson relating to matters under the mandate of the Committee.” The statement is asked of the Chairman, but through the Committee. The second portion states that:-

“The Speaker may appoint a day for the statement to be made or direct that the statement be issued on the same day.” So, for the statement to be issued in any other form other than the form that is specified, leave must be sought. However, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Standing Order No.46 (3) says that:-

“A Senator who wishes to seek leave to raise a statement under (2) (a) or (b) shall, before 1:00 p.m., on the day on which the Statement is proposed to be made, hand to the Speaker a written notification of the matter.”

The answer cannot come in a different format. The Statement that is sought is in writing and therefore, the answer must also come in the same format. Your directions on this matter would be very welcome.

Thank you.

Proceed, Sen. Haji.

- “A Senator may request for a statement from a Committee chairperson relating to matters under the mandate of the Committee.” The statement is asked of the Chairman, but through the Committee. The second portion states that:- “The Speaker may appoint a day for the statement to be made or direct that the statement be issued on the same day.” So, for the statement to be issued in any other form other than the form that is specified, leave must be sought. However, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Standing Order No.46 (3) says that:- “A Senator who wishes to seek leave to raise a statement under (2) (a) or (b) shall, before 1:00 p.m., on the day on which the Statement is proposed to be made, hand to the Speaker a written notification of the matter.” The answer cannot come in a different format. The Statement that is sought is in writing and therefore, the answer must also come in the same format. Your directions on this matter would be very welcome. Thank you.

Proceed, Sen. Haji.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will abide by your ruling, but I disagree completely with my junior here because Standing Order No.46 (2) (b) states:-

“A Senator may request for a statement from a Committee chairperson---” He is a Chairperson of that Committee. Therefore, it is under his purview. He is capable of answering it.

Hon. Senators, like I ruled, it seems Sen. Sakaja was ready because the question that was asked seemed to be a question that is in public knowledge. For purposes of the record and since he is not going to ask the Government, I still direct that you provide a written and signed answer by the Chair tomorrow.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That is well guided. I just want to urge that for the precedence of this House, we either clarify that Standing Order or you make it clear by your ruling that the statements that are sought are being sought from the Committee chairpersons on matters under their mandate. It could be a matter that the

Committee is already dealing with or the Committee is well aware of. The issue of getting responses from the Cabinet is just in the case that the information is not in the Committee or it is something that has just happened. However, the first place where we look for those answers must be within the Committee. This is not a parliamentary system. We are in a presidential system, so the answers are from within Parliament.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday you ordered that in the interim, I make a response on an issue related to a song that I do not understand. I have only heard that is spreads hate speech against anybody who is a Kamba, and it is purportedly sang by a Kikuyu speaker. It does not mean that they are Kikuyus.

I contacted the Inspector General of Police. I did not do it alone, but we did it together with the Vice Chairperson of the Committee, Sen. (Rev.) Naomi Waqo who has even more information. The Inspector General of Police has said that the police have established the identity of the singers. The said singes have run into some hiding, but they are being pursued and they are going to be arrested anytime from now.

The second part of the question was whether the information can be pulled down from wherever it is. The Inspector General of Police, himself, told me that it is impossible to pull down the information because it is all over. It is in WhatsApp for people, different blogs and places. It will be impossible to just do it without proper legal mechanisms taking place. The necessary orders will be sought for action once those people are arrested. They are going to be arrested soon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in his experience as a police officer for over thirty years, the Inspector General of Police told me that the more this issue is also discussed at the highest levels, the more curious people are to receive it. It is circulating in WhatsApp groups. People are asking what the song is all about and so forth. I like what the Senator for Makueni County said on his Facebook. He referred to the message without reposting it on his Facebook. He even cautioned his readers. So that we do not satisfy the bad manners of the singers, he encouraged that there was no need for them to seek it until legal action is done. So, efforts are being made to resolve this issue.

If you allow me, the Vice Chairperson can also add one word because she is the one who is going to give the comprehensive answer going forward.

Proceed, Sen. (Rev.) Waqo.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday you ordered that in the interim, I make a response on an issue related to a song that I do not understand. I have only heard that is spreads hate speech against anybody who is a Kamba, and it is purportedly sang by a Kikuyu speaker. It does not mean that they are Kikuyus.

I contacted the Inspector General of Police. I did not do it alone, but we did it together with the Vice Chairperson of the Committee, Sen. (Rev.) Naomi Waqo who has even more information. The Inspector General of Police has said that the police have established the identity of the singers. The said singes have run into some hiding, but they are being pursued and they are going to be arrested anytime from now.

The second part of the question was whether the information can be pulled down from wherever it is. The Inspector General of Police, himself, told me that it is impossible to pull down the information because it is all over. It is in WhatsApp for people, different blogs and places. It will be impossible to just do it without proper legal mechanisms taking place. The necessary orders will be sought for action once those people are arrested. They are going to be arrested soon.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in his experience as a police officer for over thirty years, the Inspector General of Police told me that the more this issue is also discussed at the highest levels, the more curious people are to receive it. It is circulating in WhatsApp groups. People are asking what the song is all about and so forth. I like what the Senator for Makueni County said on his Facebook. He referred to the message without reposting it on his Facebook. He even cautioned his readers. So that we do not satisfy the bad manners of the singers, he encouraged that there was no need for them to seek it until legal action is done. So, efforts are being made to resolve this issue.

If you allow me, the Vice Chairperson can also add one word because she is the one who is going to give the comprehensive answer going forward.

Proceed, Sen. (Rev.) Waqo.

I had made a ruling that she will give a comprehensive report on Thursday which is tomorrow. Yours was an interim answer which we ordered that you give today as a stop-gap measure.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in that case, I just wanted to confirm to this House that it was not my personal effort alone, but also the chairperson. Secondly, I have also seen information which is in the public domain that this morning the Governor for Nyeri County and the Governor for Machakos County had friendly engagements in Machakos and he also issued a statement on the same matter and encouraged good relations.

The Governor for Nyeri County did not have to go all the way to Machakos County because the Senators for Machakos, Kiambu, Nyeri, Murang’a counties are here. They can also do the same to take muthokoi and githeri to be prepared at the restaurant in Parliament and show their supporters that Kambas and Kikuyus can stay together.

Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the matter is not as simple as it appears. I want to bring to the attention of this House that when our soldiers were attacked in El Adde, those fellows posted on the internet the video of how thy carried out that attack. The Government caused that video to be erased immediately from the internet. Therefore, it is possible to follow the source because the minute you delete the video from there, it then informs any person who is circulating it that they are committing an offence. That is the purpose of doing so.

However, to say that it is everywhere and, therefore, you will not do it is actually not in consonance with cyber-crime and fraud which is why I am upset about the Bill that was plagiarised by the National Assembly. It is actually possible to delete a post, video or message. I am aware that the Communications Authority of Kenya (CAK) has a cyber- crime unit that can do that very easily. Therefore, the Senate Majority Leader, should make a step forward than speak to the Inspector General (IG) of police. May be this is not housed at his office at Vigilance House, but find out from the Ministry of Information, Communication and Technology (ICT) through the Cabinet Secretary (CS) Mr. Mucheru whether this is possible. It should be done as an act to demonstrate that the minute one circulates the video after the removal, the person is committing an offence.

Let us have Sen. Wambua.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is appalling really to hear that all the police could say was that they are pursuing these two young men who apparently have gone into hiding. I would have expected that the Senate Majority Leader would have come here to tell us that the two offending musicians have already been arrested and appropriately charged.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not intend to inflame unnecessary emotions on this matter. However, when a Member of the National Assembly recently uttered words that were interpreted to be an insult to the Head of State, the Member was arrested immediately and charged forthwith.

These are two men who have insulted an entire community but the IG is saying that they have gone into hiding. I would seek your guidance on how to progress with the matter---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Sakaja?

Sen. Wambua can you clarify on the matter---

Sen. Wambua can you clarify on the matter---

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is exactly what I was talking about. It has nothing to do with the politics of Jubilee and the National Super Alliance (NASA) parties. It has nothing to do with---

What is your point of order, Senate Majority leader?

What is your point of order, Senate Majority leader?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important also to clarify to new Members - nobody is new anymore since we are all past six months - when you say substantiate, it means that you validate the statements you made and their truthfulness either immediately or you bring the evidence at an appointed date than to now take it round.

Order Members, I think it is my prerogative. Do not usurp my powers.

Order Members, I think it is my prerogative. Do not usurp my powers.

The Standing Orders ask you to do it in 24 hours.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oblige. It will be done tomorrow. But I am on a point of order.

Having said that, let us go back to the issue that I had raised in my Statement. Does the Senate Majority Leader have the liberty to disclose the names that he was given by the IG and tell us the progress in as far as apprehending these two offending musicians is concerned?

On the matter of the Governors of Nyeri and Machakos sitting together and talking, we do that all the time and it has not stopped the two men from doing what they did. I and the people of Kitui, Machakos and Makueni would be happy to know the progress that has been made on these two musicians.

The Senate Majority Leader. The Senate Majority leader (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that he is a Member of the Committee. I was telling him that he should not request for statements from his Committee Chair. As we go forward we should plan. By the way, we had an understanding in the National Assembly that Members of a Committee should not raise a question to the same Committee they sit in. Having said that, I beg to reply.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have agreed that those two gentlemen - they cannot even be gentlemen - committed obscenities and uttered words that are preaching hatred and there is no doubt about that. As to whether they should be arrested, the first thing was to identify them. If the Senator heard me correctly, I said the IG has confirmed that they have been identified and only an imminent arrest is remaining. In fact, when I asked the IG where they come from and he told me it is not necessary for now because their arrest is imminent. If we can be patient up to Thursday, perhaps by the time when the Chair is coming with the substantive information tomorrow, maybe things will have changed. On the question of pulling down the offending material, while I agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., there is too much information on social media against the Senator, myself and others which we have been wishing would be pulled down. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you can control some of the information on social media sites but not all. For example, if you look at those videos that we are talking about; the ones that are in the phones through WhatsApp, it is not easy. It is agreeable that the Senator can bring the exact website he wants me to take to the necessary Government enforcement agencies to bring down. However, even if we bring down one today, Sen. Wambua who has been in the media will tell you that you remove one blog today, another useless blogger posts the same and so forth. I think we should focus on dealing with the perpetrators who must be apprehended and punished for their crimes.

We expect a comprehensive answer on Thursday from the Chair of that Committee. Let us now get a response from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget on a Statement requested by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Total 115,297,772 46,247,317 40.1

account of the high default rate by the residents. The main objective of the fund is to provide access to affordable credit for groups of women, youth and persons with disabilities geared toward promoting their enterprises. The beneficiary groups are supposed to repay the loans within 24 months after the expiry of a sixth month grace period. The fund is a constituency-based revolving fund where the repaid amounts are loaned to other deserving groups to enhance access to as many groups in the constituencies as possible.

In addition, the repaid amounts are loaned as additional funds to groups that have successfully completed their previous loans, progressively to a maximum amount of Ksh500,000, as stipulated by the Fund’s regulations. Thereafter the groups are linked to financial institutions for further loaning as may be required. Consequently, it is not prudent for the government to waive the outstanding loans as this will negate the very objective of the Fund and deny other deserving groups in the constituencies.

This is in line with Section 21 of the Public Finance Management Act, Uwezo Fund Regulations 2014, which provide for full repayment of the funds by all recipient groups. The Fund’s secretariat, in liaison with the patrons in the National Government and administrative officers, are involved in intensive loan repayment campaigns in constituencies with very low loan repayment to boost the repayment rates and the response is encouraging.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is the response I have. I am sorry there is a bit of a mix up in Kibwezi East and Makueni constituencies. But together with the Senator, we will try to get the actual figures so as to rectify this.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Total 115,297,772 46,247,317 40.1

account of the high default rate by the residents. The main objective of the fund is to provide access to affordable credit for groups of women, youth and persons with disabilities geared toward promoting their enterprises. The beneficiary groups are supposed to repay the loans within 24 months after the expiry of a sixth month grace period. The fund is a constituency-based revolving fund where the repaid amounts are loaned to other deserving groups to enhance access to as many groups in the constituencies as possible.

In addition, the repaid amounts are loaned as additional funds to groups that have successfully completed their previous loans, progressively to a maximum amount of Ksh500,000, as stipulated by the Fund’s regulations. Thereafter the groups are linked to financial institutions for further loaning as may be required. Consequently, it is not prudent for the government to waive the outstanding loans as this will negate the very objective of the Fund and deny other deserving groups in the constituencies.

This is in line with Section 21 of the Public Finance Management Act, Uwezo Fund Regulations 2014, which provide for full repayment of the funds by all recipient groups. The Fund’s secretariat, in liaison with the patrons in the National Government and administrative officers, are involved in intensive loan repayment campaigns in constituencies with very low loan repayment to boost the repayment rates and the response is encouraging.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is the response I have. I am sorry there is a bit of a mix up in Kibwezi East and Makueni constituencies. But together with the Senator, we will try to get the actual figures so as to rectify this.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

We also know that in the run-up to the last general elections, loans worth billions of shillings were waved for tea and coffee farmers. Why would the Government refuse to waive loans of Kshs50,000 to women and youth? We know very well that due to the drought and problems that we have had, it is impossible to get these loans. My concern is not the repayment because they will not pay, but that officers of the national Government are using force and threats and people are already worried. Could the Chairperson, please, clarify that position?

Thank you.

Before you clarify, I can see an intervention from Senator Olekina.

Let us have Sen. Mohamed Yusuf Haji.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker Sir. I also want to add my voice to the concern of Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. He has talked about mabatis being removed. They have not been removed. But in our case, people bought livestock. Last year there was a drought and they were wiped out. Whatever remained is now finished. As I am talking to you, out of my only investment in this world of 400 cows, I lost 200 cows. You can imagine what became of the people who had only two or three cows. So, we want to know whether the Government will waive the loans. If they waived the Agricultural Finance Corporation (AFC) loans and other loans, these loans should also be waived.

Thank you.

Sen. Moses Wetangula. The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Chairperson also tell this House and country the following:-

On a point of Order Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order the Leader of Majority?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, many businesses are brought down because of the recklessness of leaders and individuals, who are in higher offices or have opportunities to bring down private or public companies that

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Chairperson also tell this House and country the following:-

people have worked so hard to build. Is it in order for the Senate Minority Leader to characterize companies, like Equity Bank and Family Bank, that are operating in the East African Community as “politically correct” companies? What does he mean? Can he substantiate?

Sen. Kang’ata, what is your point of order?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I honestly urge you to demand that the Senate Minority Leader withdraws that statement. I say this because last year there was a bank that collapsed because of some funny information that circulated on Twitter. Therefore, that statement has a lot of impact, particularly when it is made in this honourable House, the Senate. If you do not handle such kind of utterances, we may set off a chain of major reactions that may torpedo very crucial private institutions. I believe that his allegation is not true and he has no evidence to substantiate it. I urge you to order that he substantiates or withdraws, failure to which, you should kick him out of this House.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Orengo?

My point of order is to emphasise the point made by the Senate Majority Leader and the Senator for Murang’a County. In being careful about asking questions about banks, may they also ask about governments that borrow and they do not want us to know where they are spending the money that they borrow, which finally puts them in a situation where they cannot give money to counties? Which is worse; the banks or the Government which cannot give money to counties?

Order, Members. Sen. Moses Wetangula, I think you just need to talk about banks in the country and not politically correct banks. That is what Members are raising.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is your point of order, Sen. Orengo?

My point of order is to emphasise the point made by the Senate Majority Leader and the Senator for Murang’a County. In being careful about asking questions about banks, may they also ask about governments that borrow and they do not want us to know where they are spending the money that they borrow, which finally puts them in a situation where they cannot give money to counties? Which is worse; the banks or the Government which cannot give money to counties?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, earlier, while discussing in house matters, you spoke about respect, decorum, good manners and behaviour that befits a Senator that serves in the Senate of the Republic of Kenya.

I do not know a citizen or a region that is not represented in this Republic where Equity Bank and Family Bank operate. They employ people and improve our economy. In any case, there are principles that govern how business is done. It is about competitiveness, whether it is in bidding or procurement. Can the Senate Minority Leader, therefore, substantiate what he means by singling out two banks, without complaints of the other banks? Is he in order to single out the two banks and call them ‘politically correct’? Can he declare his interest? Is he holding brief on behalf of any bank and what are those interests? Is it monetary?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as we all know, Equity Bank and Family Bank are widespread in the country. The initial amount required to open a bank account in the two banks is cheaper than most banks. Secondly, we know what Equity Bank is doing. They are paying fees for poor orphans. So, they are playing a role and we do not need to complain about them.

Mr. Speaker Sir, I am very careful in what I say; I do not speak without facts. I have been in this House long enough to know what to say and when to say it. The Government of the Republic of Kenya, through wananchi and the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) , controls the Cooperative Bank. The Government is a critical shareholder in the Kenya Commercial Bank (KCB) and there are other banks in this country which are owned by taxpayers’ money; you and I, and even the complaining Senators. Why would the Government take public funds and channel them through favoured banks? We know this; it has happened many times over. I want to state here and now that Equity Bank and Family Bank are politically correct banks.

Order Members! Let us stick to the issues that have been raised, so that the Chair can respond. Sen. Wetangula, you have to finish and desist from labeling some banks as being “politically correct.”

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to inform my brother Yusuf Haji, the Senator for Garissa in case he does not know that the money that Equity Bank uses on a programme called Wings to Fly is money from the United Nations (UN) and not from Equity Bank. Not a single shilling of that money is from Equity Bank. In fact, Equity Bank makes a profit out of that programme.

Point of order!

What is your point of order Sen. Mwaura?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the respectable Senate Minority Leader in order to mislead this House that Equity Bank is a “politically correct” bank? I do not

Order Members! Let us stick to the issues that have been raised, so that the Chair can respond. Sen. Wetangula, you have to finish and desist from labeling some banks as being “politically correct.” The Senate Minority Leader (

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to appeal to you because it is not in order for us to deviate from the main role of this House. Equity Bank is listed on the Nairobi Securities Exchange (NSE) and I believe some of his voters are shareholders in Equity Bank. Is he in order to use this House to sabotage the progress that Kenya has made and the interest of his voters while in this House?

Honourable Members, we must make progress. Sen. Wetangula, you are out of order to label some banks as being “politically correct”. That is not right and I ask you to withdraw and apologise.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the first point of call should be to require me to substantiate. If I fail, then I can go the route of withdrawing and apologising.

I want to promise the Chair that tomorrow at 2.30 p.m., I will be here ahead of even the Speaker and I will put a dossier on this table to show how “politically correct” these two banks are. I will also explain how Minister Amos Kimunya as he then was in Finance, used state money to prop the growth of Equity Bank to where it is. Tomorrow at

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I know you will make a ruling because the Standing Orders allow you to give a Member 24 hours to substantiate and there is no problem with that. As the Senate Minority Leader will be coming to substantiate, could he also come with clear information to this House on which side of the political divide he was with Hon. Kimunya and the role he played in making those banks “politically correct”?

What is your point of order Sen. Mwaura?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the respectable Senate Minority Leader in order to mislead this House that Equity Bank is a “politically correct” bank? I do not

Sen. Wetangula, Sen. Mwaura is a nominated Senator representing people living with disability.

Point of order!

Let him conclude.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you gave us a very good precedent today in our informal setup. This is a House of decorum and every Member must be given the dignity that they so deserve. Is it in order for the Senate Minority Leader ---

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I know you will make a ruling because the Standing Orders allow you to give a Member 24 hours to substantiate and there is no problem with that. As the Senate Minority Leader will be coming to substantiate, could he also come with clear information to this House on which side of the political divide he was with Hon. Kimunya and the role he played in making those banks “politically correct”?

Order! Sen. Wetangula, please, withdraw and apologise.

The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, some colleagues do not seem to appreciate the rules of debate in this House. I have finished by asking the distinguished Senator either now or later to bring us a list of disbursement of Social Safety Net Funds (SSNF) .

I have already done so.

Thank you so much Mr. Speaker, Sir. By all means, I will do so with gusto. Let me finish seeking clarification from the distinguished Senator for Mandera, who is the Chair of my committee and works very hard. Could he also, either today or later, bring to this House a complete detail of all Social Safety Net Funds and how they have been disbursed across counties, from county 001 to county 047?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I withdrew and apologised. I repeated it. I want to assure hon. Senators that this House is not for the faint-hearted. This House is for men and women made of steel.

Point of order!

Let him conclude.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I get a bit disturbed that we have prosecuted our business with points of order. If one point of order leads to another point of order and we are perpetually on points of order, we cannot move. This is basically directed to my own colleagues. Can we, please, find a standard way of getting attention on the point of order? I have seen people raise hands, stand up and raise legs. What are they doing? What is the standard way to get your attention so that we transact business in this House?

Order, Members! Sen. Mwaura, I had made a ruling on that matter. I said that you are a Senator who is representing People Living with Disability (PLWD) . Sen. Wetangula, withdraw that statement. The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have the greatest respect for the distinguished Sen. Mwaura who has been nominated to represent PLWD---

The other question that was raised by Sen. Wetangula was about Social Safety Net Funds. I am not in a position to answer this question. Let him raise the question in a structured manner and we will send it to the department concerned and respond accordingly.

Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., can follow up with the Chairperson on other areas that need clarification.

We can now hear from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security, Defence and Foreign Affairs.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, some colleagues do not seem to appreciate the rules of debate in this House. I have finished by asking the distinguished Senator either now or later to bring us a list of disbursement of Social Safety Net Funds (SSNF) .

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. To save on time, I will skip what the Hon. Senators had asked and go straight to the answer.

I wish to state as follows: Following the 30th January, 2018, administration of oath - to commit a capital offence, namely; treason, contrary to Section 59 (a) of the Penal Code at Uhuru Park Nairobi, a search warrant was obtained at Milimani Law Courts, Nairobi on 1st February,

Order Senators. I can see two, three, four requests for intervention. You should make them extremely brief. I will start with the Senate Majority Leader.

It is a point of order. Is it so, Senate Majority Leader?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir. Having listened to the answer given by the Chairperson, is it in order for us to proceed to discuss this matter considering Standing Order No.92 and the rule of sub judice? This is also in consideration of the fact that this case is still alive in court. Two key decisions of the court were made by Justice Kimaru and Justice Mwita. I am also aware that notices of appeal were filed on the same. This is a very substantive issue. I am not sure, but I think that Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and Sen. Orengo are on record on this matter in court.

Order, Members! Let us maintain our decorum. Let us allow the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to issue statement.

Sen. Wamatangi, please, take your seat? Let us get a response first and I will give you an opportunity.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I get a bit disturbed that we have prosecuted our business with points of order. If one point of order leads to another point of order and we are perpetually on points of order, we cannot move. This is basically directed to my own colleagues. Can we, please, find a standard way of getting attention on the point of order? I have seen people raise hands, stand up and raise legs. What are they doing? What is the standard way to get your attention so that we transact business in this House?

Order! There is a button that a Member can press and their name will reflect here.

Hon. Members, earlier on in the day I said that the rest of the world is watching what we are doing and the children up here are also watching. We are going to be judged by how we debate and how we conduct ourselves in this House.

The Chairperson of the Committee on Budget and Finance, you can proceed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, after your guidance yesterday, we will answer this question tomorrow.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know what ‘sine qua non’ is. Trust me.

That is a conditional precedent. You must first tell us where this matter lies before declaring that you will issue the Statement tomorrow.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. To save on time, I will skip what the Hon. Senators had asked and go straight to the answer.

I wish to state as follows: Following the 30th January, 2018, administration of oath - to commit a capital offence, namely; treason, contrary to Section 59 (a) of the Penal Code at Uhuru Park Nairobi, a search warrant was obtained at Milimani Law Courts, Nairobi on 1st February,

Well done, Chairman. That is how chairpersons of committees should address us, going forward.

Sen. Khaniri, are you okay with tomorrow?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for your firmness. I am okay with tomorrow as long as he comes with an answer that is addressing all the four issues I raised which are very important. I hope he will do that.

I direct that the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget issues the Statement which appears as Statement (c) in today’s Order Paper, tomorrow.

The next Statement is by the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Energy regarding coal exploration at Mui Basin, Kitui County. Proceed, Chairperson. Where is Sen. Maina of Nyeri County? Is the Vice-Chairperson or any Member of that Committee in the House?

Yes, Sen. Seneta.

I think that is a valid concern from the Senate Majority Leader. The Senate Minority Leader (

Order, Senator! You are the Vice- Chairperson of the Committee. Is the statement ready?

Let us hear from Sen. Wambua.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You gave a direction on that matter yesterday and the direction was that the Chairman would at the very least provide an interim report on the decision to take a new contractor on site. The direction from the Chairperson yesterday was that we would get a brief today and a comprehensive answer tomorrow. I will be guided by you.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, after your guidance yesterday, we will answer this question tomorrow.

No. Order, Senator! Sen. (Eng.) Mahamud, please sit down. My direction yesterday was as follows: That you should first give the House the progress or the status of that Statement. You should update this House on what efforts you have made and whether you have succeeded or not. So, that is a condition sine qua non.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know what ‘sine qua non’ is. Trust me.

That is a conditional precedent. You must first tell us where this matter lies before declaring that you will issue the Statement tomorrow.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my Committee had a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary (CS) and his team this morning on the matter in question and we have agreed that we will answer this question tomorrow.

In fact, we have directed them to go and give us a comprehensive answer and sign it out. Our Clerks are now busy following them to have the answers and I hope to answer the question tomorrow.

Well done, Chairman. That is how chairpersons of committees should address us, going forward.

Sen. Khaniri, are you okay with tomorrow?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for your firmness. I am okay with tomorrow as long as he comes with an answer that is addressing all the four issues I raised which are very important. I hope he will do that.

I direct that the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget issues the Statement which appears as Statement (c) in today’s Order Paper, tomorrow.

The next Statement is by the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Energy regarding coal exploration at Mui Basin, Kitui County. Proceed, Chairperson. Where is Sen. Maina of Nyeri County? Is the Vice-Chairperson or any Member of that Committee in the House?

Yes, Sen. Seneta.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, according to the letter that I was shown by the Senator for Kirinyaga, the PS says that the Ministry will respond to this matter on 13th March, 2018.

I direct as follows; one, that the interim Statement that has already been signed by the PS be issued tomorrow. Two, that a final Statement on this issue be issued on Thursday, next week.

It is so ordered.

Order, Senators! We have very little time. As you can see, it is already past 4

No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Let us hear from Sen. Wambua.

On that note, Chairperson of the Committee on Tourism, Trade and Industrialization, do you have the Statement concerning the state of tourism in Malindi?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have it.

How long is it?

It is two pages long.

Just summarize the findings,

administratively and consult with the Speaker’s Office. That is why I gave an undertaking when the Statement would be ready. You have the Statement on your table there which I actually managed to get from the Principal Secretary (PS), Ministry of Energy this morning. I have stressed to them the seriousness of the delay on this matter.

Consequently, I had the courtesy and respect to inform the questioner on the same and he said that all was well. Right now, I was with the Speaker consulting on some matter because I had left this matter sorted out. He told me that the Speaker in the Chair was looking for me and that maybe you have forgotten what he told you. The Statement is on your table.

Very well, fellow Senator. Sen. Wambua, has the Chairperson of the Standing Committee Energy shared with you the Statement?

Yes, I have it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

How long is it? If it is long, I would rather we issue it tomorrow.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not mind.

Sen. Lelegwe, are you okay with the statement being issued tomorrow?

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order. You are requesting Chairpersons of Committees to give a summary of the responses to the statements. But I think that Statements are very important to this House and they should go on record in the HANSARD. I request that if we do not have time, we should even postpone the Statements so that we can---

because we have very limited time and a lot of work to do. Let us not introduce side issues; let us go straight to the point.

Chairpersons of Committees, you do not need to read the Statements word for word, because it is assumed that you have shared it with the Senator who requested for the Statement. Just summarize the responses, tell us the conclusion and we move on. So, in the next ten minutes at most, if not five, we should be through with the remaining Statements.

Can you issue it in three minutes or do we do this tomorrow?

For your information, hon. Senators, we should not be spending more than one hour on Statements. Sen. Lelegwe, the Senate does not have all the time in the world; we have limited time. The reason why the Statement is shared is because the primary consumer of the Statement is the Senator who asked for it. That is why we ensure that it is in writing and, so, it should be available. But we cannot have the Chairperson come to read to us a 50-page Statement. If we have ten statements to issue, those would be 500 pages of reading. That way, we will not dispense with any business here.

Sen. Haji, I request that you issue that Statement tomorrow.

That is fine, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you. It is so ordered.

The next Statement is to be issued by Sen. Yusuf Haji on the alleged excessive use of force and police brutality during demonstrations. Do you have that Statement, Sen. Haji?

It is two pages long.

Just summarize the findings,

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We discussed that issue with the distinguished Senator and I was advised that the Statement is not ready. So, I will wait until it is ready.

When will it be ready, Sen. Haji?

Yes, I have it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

How long is it? If it is long, I would rather we issue it tomorrow.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not mind.

Sen. Lelegwe, are you okay with the statement being issued tomorrow?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is not ready, but we will give a response tomorrow.

Sen. Wambua, Sen. (Rev.) Waqo says the Statement on the song will be ready tomorrow. Is that okay with you?

That is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

It is so ordered.

Finally, there is a Statement to be issued by the Chairperson of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Natural Resources regarding the use and management of riparian areas in Kenya. Where is the Chairperson of the Committee?

Proceed, Sen. Mwangi.

That is fine, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Thank you. It is so ordered.

The next Statement is to be issued by Sen. Yusuf Haji on the alleged excessive use of force and police brutality during demonstrations. Do you have that Statement, Sen. Haji?

It is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

How much more time are you giving the Committee?

One more week, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

It is so ordered.

Thank you, hon. Senators. That brings us to the end of Statements. As I have ruled, in future, we should dispense with Statements in about one hour. We are all leaders and we have a way of capturing all these issues without taking too much time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we will endeavour to get it on Thursday.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have just removed words from my mouth. My worry is that we spend so much time on Statements. I am wondering what the Business of this House is. It is important that Members bring Statements on issues and matters that affect their constituents. However, the Business of this House is not only Statements. Is there a way we can allocate time for Statements so that we can deal with the other Business of the House?

Sen. Ndwiga, that point is noted. That ought to be the practice; it will be acted upon.

Order, Senators! Order, Sen. Orengo and Sen. Malalah. I have a Communication to make.

It is so ordered.

The second last Statement is to be issued by the Chairperson of the Committee on National Cohesion, Equal Opportunity and Regional Integration regarding the song.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is not ready, but we will give a response tomorrow.

I thank you. Next Order!

That is okay, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Order, hon. Senators! It is now voting time. Order, Sen. Mugo, Sen. Olekina and Sen. M. Kajwang’. Those who are receding should know that you cannot recede when we are voting. We will vote shortly. You can recede during the duration of the Division Bell.

I now direct that the Bell be rang for three minutes.

Order Senators! Resume your seats. Senate Majority Leader and the whips, do we have the numbers?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Statement is not ready. However, my Vice Chairperson has talked to Sen. Seneta about it and they have agreed that she can give us more time.

It is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

consulted the Clerk-at-the-Table) The Clerk-at-the-Table has asked for more time.

Order, Sen. Pareno! The Standing Orders do not allow you to move during Division. You should remain at your seat permanently and quietly.

What is it Sen. Njeru Ndwiga?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have just removed words from my mouth. My worry is that we spend so much time on Statements. I am wondering what the Business of this House is. It is important that Members bring Statements on issues and matters that affect their constituents. However, the Business of this House is not only Statements. Is there a way we can allocate time for Statements so that we can deal with the other Business of the House?

Sen. Ndwiga, that point is noted. That ought to be the practice; it will be acted upon.

Order, Senators! Order, Sen. Orengo and Sen. Malalah. I have a Communication to make.

I thank you. Next Order!

Order Senators. That Order also requires us to vote. I direct that we ring the Division Bell for a minute.

Yes, the doors must be opened. Open the doors and draw the bars while the bell rings for one minute.

Order, Senators. You should be resuming your seats now. I now direct that the doors be closed and the bars drawn.

Order, Senators. Let us try technology this time. Log in.

Yes we do.

I now direct that the doors be locked and the Bar drawn.

consulted the Clerk-at-the-Table) The Clerk-at-the-Table has asked for more time.

Order, Sen. Pareno! The Standing Orders do not allow you to move during Division. You should remain at your seat permanently and quietly.

Let the Clerks do the tallying.

AYES: Sen. (Dr.) Ali, Wajir County; Sen. Boy, Kwale County; Sen. Cherargei, Nandi County; Sen. Cheruiyot, Kericho County; Sen. Dullo; Isiolo County; Sen. (Prof.) Ekal, Turkana County; Sen. Faki, Mombasa County; Sen. Farhiya, Nairobi City County; Sen. Hargura, Marsabit County; Sen. Iman, Garissa County; Sen. M. Kajwang’, Homa Bay County; Sen. Kang’ata, Murang’a County; Sen. Kibiru, Kirinyaga County; Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, Tharaka-Nithi County; Sen. Kinyua, Laikipia County; Sen. (Dr.) Langat, Bomet County; Sen. Lelegwe, Samburu County; Sen. Loitiptip, Lamu County; Sen. Madzayo, Kilifi County; Sen.

(Eng.)

Mahamud, Mandera County; Sen. Malalah, Kakamega County; Sen. Mpaayei, Kajiado County; Sen. Murkomen, Elgeyo Marakwet County; Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., Makueni County; Sen. Mwangi, Nyandarua County; Sen. Mwaruma, Taita-Taveta County; Sen. Ndwiga, Embu County; Sen. Olekina, Narok County; Sen. (Prof.) Ongeri, Kisii County; Sen. Poghisio, West Pokot County; Sen. Prengei, Nakuru County; Sen. Wako, Busia County; Sen. Wamatangi, Kiambu County; Sen. Wambua, Kitui County; Sen. Wetangula, Bungoma County.

Very well. Any other Member except the mover and those who spoke? Yes, Senate Leader of Majority.

The Senate Leader of Majority (Sen. Murkomen) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion with the necessary amendments I am going to suggest. This is a very important Bill which is resolving a problem bedeviling the counties. I have consulted the mover, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo jnr. and there are certain thoughts I want to put forth.

From the onset, it is one of those areas in the Constitution that when it was drafted they overlooked the review or resolution of conflicts that are related to boundaries of counties.

The current counties are part of the districts that existed in 1992. Next to this Bill is what we call the boundaries including coordinates of various parts of our counties. This is important because at the moment, we have problems related to conflict and I am sure the mover was inspired by the conflict between Machakos and Makueni County as to whether Konza City was in Machakos or Makueni.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when the Constitution was being made according to the report from Naivasha, the decision to having 47 counties was arrived at after a lot of discussion as to what were viable entities to become regions.

The initial proposal was to have eight regions and then it moved to 14 regions. Then people would not agree whether Nakuru should be in the Central Rift, North Rift or South Rift. There were some discussions as to whether the Ukambani region which was the Eastern region that time in the provinces was going to be divided into two or part of it should go with your county, Tharaka Nithi, Meru, Isiolo and Embu.

In fact, when I was moving the Urban Areas and Cities (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.4 of 2017) I dared say that it was a mistake to make Nairobi a County. All over the world, Washington DC, where the students who were here and their professors came from, was delimited as a District of Columbia for the purpose of creating the headquarters of the United States of America which, although has 50 states, created a headquarters for the purpose of running the State.

Consequently, if you go to Washington DC, although they complain that they are being taxed without representation, the wisdom behind the creation of the District of

Next Order.

Order Senators. That Order also requires us to vote. I direct that we ring the Division Bell for a minute.

Yes, the doors must be opened. Open the doors and draw the bars while the bell rings for one minute.

Order, Senators. You should be resuming your seats now. I now direct that the doors be closed and the bars drawn.

Order, Senators. Let us try technology this time. Log in.

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the future in terms of conflict resolution--- I know of a situation in the last Parliament where my Governor and the MP of Ainabkoi Constituency were always fighting over whether Elgeyo Marakwet County should be collecting cess around Kaptagat area. This is because Kaptagat is both in Uasin Gishu and Elgeyo Marakwet counties. So, we have all these challenges in terms of boundaries.

Therefore, the efforts of the Senator must be recognized, despite the fact that he was part and parcel of those who unknowingly defeated a Bill in this House and annoyed me. I am a reasonable man and I know that this is a good Bill. This is because it is about creating mechanisms for solving those disputes peacefully so that we can avoid situations where there are fights, for example, between Kitui and Garissa or Tana River counties because of grazing rights and boundaries.

There is also the question of Elgeyo Marakwet and West Pokot or Baringo Counties. Luckily for the Baringo side, we enjoy having the Kerio River, and already this Bill says that it is up to the east and the west side of the river to determine those boundaries. But, where there are no natural features, many people struggle to know exactly where the boundaries are and how they will deal with those situations.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am agreeable to the fact that Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has proposed that the resolution of these boundary problems, in the first instance, be subjected to a mediation Committee. That is important because alternative dispute resolution must be encouraged. Mediation captures the spirit of the African culture on how Africans resolved their problems. This is something that we must think through.

Yesterday, I saw the Cabinet Secretary (CS) in charge of the Ministry of Devolution and Planning, Hon. Eugene Wamalwa, who is also an Advocate, adding his voice to this issue. He argued that one of the biggest problems bedeviling counties is dealing with legal fees and, therefore, mediation and conciliation should be applied so that we can solve some of those problems. This is of benefit not only to the enforcement of rights but also in the expansion of the constitution with regards to the maxim of locus standi.

This applies to any person who can go to court on behalf of a county and anybody who thinks that their rights have or will be infringed, which will lead to counties being in serious problems dealing with legal fees. In agreeing with the CS, we have to develop mechanisms of dealing with this problem. We have to develop mechanisms between us and the Judiciary, where the courts will consciously realize that public resources will be expended in defending all the cases brought to court.

Where it is possible, particularly where you are not dealing directly with the enforcement of rights, we must sit down and see to it that mediation, reconciliation and arbitration are applied as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms so that we can save our resources in this country.

Yesterday, as we spoke about the insurance situation in Murang’a, we know that unscrupulous and corrupt individuals operating in counties are misusing the service sector, including the legal sector, to instruct individuals with an intention of paying them exorbitant legal fees that are sometimes immoral. Even we, as lawyers, must take a stand that we will not participate in a process of inflating legal fees just for the sake of fleecing our counties of their resources. It is laughable that some lawyers cannot even pay their

That is the end of voting, hon. Senators. Those senators who were unable to vote electronically may now approach the clerks-at-the-table and record their votes. Let us have assisted voters and do it quickly.

Indeed, they are many. Order. We are still doing Division. Order, Sen. Olekina. I can see you are excited that the Majority side still has the majority assisted voters.

Order, Senators! Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:

Yes, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the record shows that this Bill had been moved, it had been seconded and we proceeded to the debate. It is important you amend the direction you gave yesterday since this Bill has actually been moved.

Very well. Any other Member except the mover and those who spoke? Yes, Senate Leader of Majority. The Senate Leader of Majority (

Parliament. This is something which will go very far in helping heal the wounds because we have a lot of problems. For example, we have boundaries which are defined between Narok County and Nakuru County. There are parts of Nakuru County which extend to Narok County. On one side of the road is Narok County and as you cross a small ‘V,’ there is a big piece of land owned by the Nyachae family. The boundaries are in the former Nakuru District, but that is actually in Narok County.

This Bill will also set up the legal framework because, currently, most counties are defined based on old districts’ boundaries and this has a tendency of creating a lot of tension. I agree with the Senate Majority Leader when he talked about people fighting for resources when they are discovered in a neighbouring county.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the main aim of this Bill is to ensure peaceful coexistence between the communities living in this country. We are so divided politically along our cultures and tribes. Once we have this legal framework it will help us to coexist with other people.

This Bill will also help us resolve land court cases. The Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) is something that will help this country. This is because there are very many land related court cases in Narok, Nakuru and Kajiado counties. For example, there is a piece of land in Suswa, which we do not know whether it is in Narok, Kajiado or Nakuru counties. Once we have this legal framework, it will help us to settle this issue.

I will now go straight to the key points which I had noted down, since I do not believe in deliberating so much on issues. Once everyone in this country knows where the boundary of County ‘X’ is, they will respect it. This Bill seeks to empower the Cabinet Secretary to keep up to date electronic records on county boundaries. I would like to urge the sponsor of this Bill to ensure that enough time is given to public participation. People in this country ought to know that there are legislations which have been set out and a framework to define the boundaries.

I also like the fact it gives a registered voter or a county executive an opportunity to petition Parliament to alter boundaries. This is because sometimes one may end up having a title deed of a piece of land that they bought many years ago, but the land cuts across two or three counties. Therefore, with such a petition, which I believe will come to the Senate, it will help us show the relevance of this House. There are so many issues about what this House can or cannot do, but if this Bill is given an opportunity to resolve these issues, it is more like giving it original jurisdiction. In this regard, I hope we can fight hard in this Senate.

I do not support the arguments of the Senate Majority Leader, but respect them, in trying to amend the Constitution through the backdoor and making Nairobi City as the headquarters of this country. The Constitution is very clear that Nairobi City is a County. Many years ago Nairobi was not even a region, but that has changed. We can give effect to Article 188 of the Constitution in terms of the alteration of county boundaries by setting up the temporary commission. This must be understood that it is not the IEBC. I do not support the position of IEBC dealing with it, since these issues are so emotive. Having a temporary commission that will also take into consideration the views of the land owners will help solve this problem.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will reiterate the issue of the ADR by stating that we have many land cases in this country. There are cases that were filed in the early 1970s in Narok County. For example, we have a case which was filled by a group ranch in Ntulele over boundary dispute which has never been resolved to date. I would like to urge the sponsor of this Bill to ensure constituency boundaries are clear because we now have a different system of government.

We do not have regions and I do not support them. This is because when we support eight regions, then the chances of a Maasai ever becoming a President in this country or a governor will be nil. The Maasai people are very generous. They sold all their land and are now scattered all the way from Marsabit to Rombo. If you say that, then we will go back to the issues of historical injustices.

I would have loved to see the National Land Commission (NLC) play a key role in this Bill. This is because there is a lot of work that has been done by them and we cannot ignore it. I saw an advertisement in the newspaper about the completion of the issuance of title deeds in Narok Town. In my view, that will be a misguided exercise because most plots in that town have more than three or four allotment letters. I would request the sponsor of this Bill to find a way to incorporate the findings of the NLC on historical land injustices. I would support the issue of regions if there was a way that we could bring all the Maasais who are scattered all the way from Marsabit to Rombo together.

The other key thing that is important in this Bill is that it is trying to address the issue of boundaries. We know many communities continue being at loggerheads over boundaries. In Narok County, for example, the Maasai and the Kipsigis communities are constantly having boundary issues. There is a provision in this Bill that encourages small local commissions to bring people from both communities to sit together and discuss these issues. We value our elders so much. Therefore, we should not ignore their input in terms of our boundaries. If we do so, we will be completely misguided.

There is a provision in this Bill that spells out a high threshold to be met before any alteration of a boundary can be carried out. This Bill gives a voter or a member of County Executive Committee (CEC) the right to petition for an alteration of boundaries. This Bill must be subjected to public participation. I urge the sponsor of this Bill to take it down to the grassroots level because land matters are very emotive. I know that the Senate Majority Leader had earlier stated that most counties are not able to raise Ksh60 million in revenue. I disagree with him. The issue here is understanding the revenue streams and putting in place proper revenue collection mechanisms.

With those few remarks, I support this Bill. We must ensure Kenyans from Marsabit to Lamu understand the contents of this Bill because the impact it will have in their lives is enormous.

Now that we are talking of Senate mashinani where we will have our sittings outside Nairobi, I urge the sponsor of this Bill to talk about these boundary issues and demystify them so that people at grassroots level will understand them. This is because many people might feel threatened when they hear their boundaries will be altered.

I would encourage that we follow through the defunct county governments. There are issues of assets and liabilities such as public land that was stolen by individuals. If we

are able to bring it back and know what assets each county has, then we would be able to fully defend devolution and also defend the boundaries. If I know that my land or the land of the people of Narok is being claimed by the people of Migori or Nakuru and we settle the issue of boundaries, that will help us resolve the dispute.

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the future in terms of conflict resolution--- I know of a situation in the last Parliament where my Governor and the MP of Ainabkoi Constituency were always fighting over whether Elgeyo Marakwet County should be collecting cess around Kaptagat area. This is because Kaptagat is both in Uasin Gishu and Elgeyo Marakwet counties. So, we have all these challenges in terms of boundaries.

Therefore, the efforts of the Senator must be recognized, despite the fact that he was part and parcel of those who unknowingly defeated a Bill in this House and annoyed me. I am a reasonable man and I know that this is a good Bill. This is because it is about creating mechanisms for solving those disputes peacefully so that we can avoid situations where there are fights, for example, between Kitui and Garissa or Tana River counties because of grazing rights and boundaries.

There is also the question of Elgeyo Marakwet and West Pokot or Baringo Counties. Luckily for the Baringo side, we enjoy having the Kerio River, and already this Bill says that it is up to the east and the west side of the river to determine those boundaries. But, where there are no natural features, many people struggle to know exactly where the boundaries are and how they will deal with those situations.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am agreeable to the fact that Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has proposed that the resolution of these boundary problems, in the first instance, be subjected to a mediation Committee. That is important because alternative dispute resolution must be encouraged. Mediation captures the spirit of the African culture on how Africans resolved their problems. This is something that we must think through.

Yesterday, I saw the Cabinet Secretary (CS) in charge of the Ministry of Devolution and Planning, Hon. Eugene Wamalwa, who is also an Advocate, adding his voice to this issue. He argued that one of the biggest problems bedeviling counties is dealing with legal fees and, therefore, mediation and conciliation should be applied so that we can solve some of those problems. This is of benefit not only to the enforcement of rights but also in the expansion of the constitution with regards to the maxim of locus standi.

This applies to any person who can go to court on behalf of a county and anybody who thinks that their rights have or will be infringed, which will lead to counties being in serious problems dealing with legal fees. In agreeing with the CS, we have to develop mechanisms of dealing with this problem. We have to develop mechanisms between us and the Judiciary, where the courts will consciously realize that public resources will be expended in defending all the cases brought to court.

Where it is possible, particularly where you are not dealing directly with the enforcement of rights, we must sit down and see to it that mediation, reconciliation and arbitration are applied as alternative dispute resolution mechanisms so that we can save our resources in this country.

Yesterday, as we spoke about the insurance situation in Murang’a, we know that unscrupulous and corrupt individuals operating in counties are misusing the service sector, including the legal sector, to instruct individuals with an intention of paying them exorbitant legal fees that are sometimes immoral. Even we, as lawyers, must take a stand that we will not participate in a process of inflating legal fees just for the sake of fleecing our counties of their resources. It is laughable that some lawyers cannot even pay their

taxes and they have to be assisted to do so because the money that they received is not theirs. A lawyer can get Kshs10 million or Kshs20 million but they may end up stating that they got Kshs2 million, Kshs3 million or Kshs1 million and the rest goes to political activities and rallies and so on and so forth.

I agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., that we should form a mediation committee if any disputes arise. That committee should not just be a mediation committee for the sake of it but it should be structured in a manner, with the involvement of the Senate, to perform its oversight responsibility. The Senate should approve members of a mediation committee. Members of the committee will work within the prescribed timeline and their report will come here and it will be approved in this House. I encourage that this should be the way to go.

Sadly, in this nation, we play to the gallery. If you are keen, you will realise that most governors who are serving a second term are a bit relaxed. There is no much noise or fighting with their neighbours. There are very little activities in terms of incitements because during the first term, everybody tries to demonstrate that they want to be loved by the constituents. Sometimes we go the other route. We must take the higher standards of engaging our citizens.

Regarding the situations of incitement, I can say it here without fear of contradiction that what is happening in Kitui is politics of populism. Even the governor of Kiambu has to respond through the politics of populism because everybody must be seen to be standing with his people. We as political leaders must expand the theory and the application of “my people”. Although you look at the immediate constituents where you have votes, the easiest thing to do is to tell them to insult others but you can tell them that you have chosen not to because you want to travel with them in the path of reconciliation and unity and keeping this country together.

Since you may be governing a small jurisdiction, you can incite people in Nairobi against another community thinking that the same community does not live in Elgeyo Marakwet or Mombasa. Because of short-term interests, five, ten or twenty years down the line, you will be ashamed to stand anywhere in the Republic of Kenya and say that you are a Kenyan because you reduced yourself to become a villager.

When citizens realise that you are an impediment, by misusing the community for purposes of populism, they will always deal with you seriously. Therefore, we must know what to tell our people even when we are dealing with boundary issues because we are Senators. We must apply the maturity demonstrated by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and Mr. Muthama who was the Senate Minority Whip. They never boxed each other here.

We also have issues between crop farmers and pastoralists. The land use is different. Some are using the land for crop farming and others for pastoral purposes. If these issues are not resolved, then it is also a source of conflict.

Looking back at the Bill, I have a concern with Clause 17; the winding up of the mediation committee. I heard Sen. Murkomen say that we must have a standby or maybe a permanent body that will deal with these disputes. This is because if we do not have institutional memory, whereby you just handover and take off, then it means things will be stuck. So, I am requesting Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. who is the sponsor of this Bill that we must have mechanisms in place so that once the Committee has finalised its report and handed over, there should be a take-over mechanism.

The other concern that I wanted to raise is on Clause 18 (2) where you are talking of “at least 15 per cent of the registered voters.” We need to increase that threshold because if we leave it at 15 per cent, every Tom, Dick and Harry will run up with a petition to the Senate or the National Assembly. So, can we increase the threshold from 15 per cent?

Another concern is that we should have mechanisms whereby before a decision on a boundary dispute is taken; we, first, need to build the capacity of those affected counties. Let people know that there are boundary disputes and that demarcation is going to take place. If we do not do that, then it is going to be very difficult for the people who are affected within those counties that the boundaries are going to be amended.

Finally, I would like to say that the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC) came up with a lot of information on historical injustices on land disputes and land boundary issues. I would request Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. to look at the TJRC Report and pick a few issues that can enrich this Bill before we pass it.

I know there are going to be issues between the Senate and the National Assembly once we pass this Bill. My brother, you need to prepare yourself so that it is not taken by the National Assembly. We have a notion that a petition submitted to the National Assembly and the Senate brings conflicts between the two Houses. Can we have one of the Houses; either the Senate or the National Assembly to deal with the issues of boundary disputes? If that does not happen, then we will still have the same issues coming up, whether it is a money Bill, a county issue or a national Government issue.

Article188 talks about Parliament. However, we need to do something because issues of boundaries affect counties. So, it should be the Senate that should deal with the boundary disputes.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving this opportunity to contribute to this important Bill. I want to commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for having come up with this Bill.

My Committee, of which he was a Member, had noticed in the last Senate, that there was a lacuna in the Constitution when it came to dealing with county boundaries. The Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) had been given a mandate to only look into the boundaries of wards and constituencies but not counties. To that extent, the Constitution specifically provides that the IEBC can only look into the boundaries of wards and constituency which means it cannot look into the boundaries of counties.

Consequently, it will be impossible to give that mandate to some Independent County Boundaries Commission through an Act of Parliament. It will not be possible to form a Commission that will be under IEBC. To me, that would be ultra vires of the Constitution which has stated that IEBC should only look into boundaries of wards and constituencies.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the IEBC is overwhelmed by the work that it already has. It has to look at referenda and all the many elections under the Constitution. The other day, they were assisting the Law Society of Kenya (LSK) in the elections. I think they are overburdened. We should not overburden them with this sensitive mandate of looking into the boundaries of counties.

It is sensitive because we have heard a very able submission by the Senator for Isiolo County on what is going on in her county. In my area, there is a lot of sensitivity in as far as the boundary of Vihiga, Siaya and Kisumu counties is concerned. It would have been dealt with earlier but it could not because under the old Constitution, that boundary was provincial. Therefore, it could not have been dealt with without amending the Constitution which is a difficult thing to do.

I, therefore, commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for filling this lacuna that we have in the Constitution and in our laws. I would like to assure Sen. Fatuma that all that she is complaining about lies within the mandate of the Mediation Committee. Amongst the principles to be taken into account are historical and cultural ties which she has complained about. What is important is people must be consulted in all decision-making processes.

Public participation is strengthened in this Bill by saying that the view of the communities affected must be taken into account. Therefore, I will not go into the issue of explaining the Mediation Committee and the Commission that will be formed because it has been said by the Senate Majority Leader and the Mover of the Bill and I do not have to repeat that. I support them in saying that in a dispute of this nature, the mediation principle is very important. This is where experts mediate the community, listen to the views and can come up with a decision on the issue.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I noticed the other day that there was some land dispute in Nandi County involving the Cabinet Secretary (CS) of Lands and Physical Planning. When I read that history, it appeared that there had been a committee of elders which looked into the history and mediated that dispute. That is the way it should go. That is the type of way that boundary disputes must be dealt with. Traditionally, we meet, discuss, conciliate and reach a decision. That is the way it should go.

In supporting this Bill, I have a bit of emotions attached to it. The Districts and Provinces Act, 1992 which I drafted and moved in Parliament way back in 1992 will be repealed. I drafted and moved it in Parliament and made sure that it was enacted. At that time, it was to fill a void.

At Independence, we had 16 or 20 districts. In the course of time, more districts were formed yet they did not have basis in law. Therefore, I commissioned a cartographer and a team which went around the districts which existed at that time. They produced a report which formed the basis of the Schedule to that Act with regard to the boundaries. I am glad that although it is being repealed, the substantive part of it has been preserved.

commission like the IEBC. We can have that as a responsibility of the IEBC. Let someone go to court because of the silence of the Constitution. In my opinion, a purposive interpretation of the Constitution will lead to the ultimate conclusion that the right body to deal with boundaries of counties is the IEBC. We should put it that the IEBC should establish a department within the commission that will be dealing with boundaries because conflicts may arise.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in resolving the dispute itself, you can remove it from the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC). But in reviewing the boundary, the IEBC should determine the boundary after reviewing it. If there will be a dispute as to whether what the IEBC has done is right or wrong, the mediation process will follow. It should end at the Mediation Committee.

If there is anyone who is unhappy with the decision of the Mediation Committee, then the decision that will be adopted by the Senate can apply for judicial review at the High Court to review that decision. The day-to-day work of reviewing the boundaries and so forth should be domesticated within the IEBC. But it should be explored despite the fact that there is silence on the part of the Commission.

Having said that, such Bills cannot be lost since it is a very important piece of legislation. Therefore, I request the Senator not to hurry the Third Reading of this Bill. Let us give time to the Committee; the matter is before it. Also, let us also interrogate the possibilities of IEBC taking over that responsibility and ensure that we have a Bill that will receive wide acceptance when it goes to the National Assembly.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Bill. As a House, let us continue working together in a manner that is in conformity with our responsibility as protectors and defenders of devolution. We need to engage more counties and county governments to generate more of such business. Next week, I will be coming to the Floor of the House with a Bill to deal with the lacuna on the question of Deputy Governor and a few issues related to deputy speakers and county public service boards. This will be in terms of their independence and strength, so that we can ensure that our counties continue moving forward.

I have seen the impatience of the Senator for Narok County. Although I still have another 30 minutes to contribute, I will stop there.

I beg to support.

However, I agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., and the Majority Leader that, maybe, Nairobi should have been counted separately. Now that he is of that view and he was a Chairperson of a Committee that made some proposals to amend the Constitution in the last Senate, I hope that now as the Senate Majority Leader, he will take up that Report, and together with the enrichment of more amendments, like the one we are now discussing, we should be able to at least make some amendments to the Constitution.

I hope that we can do it within two-and-a-half years of our term. We will not carry out proper amendments to the Constitution because of the politics of after two or three years. Therefore, now is the time to address all the constitutional issues that should be addressed. If possible, we should have amendments and a referendum within two years. That way, we can leave three years for those who want to politic.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this Bill. I commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for this Bill, which I support strongly.

Article 6 of the Constitution provides that Kenya is divided into counties, but it does not define how the counties will be divided. The fact that it does not define the counties is already a problem in this country. Why is it so? It is because of the disputes that are likely to arise as a result of land issues.

Just to cite a few examples, we have had quite a number of disputes concerning land issues. Meru and Isiolo counties have had land disputes. Meru and Tharaka-Nithi counties have also had land issues. Even Kisii and Nyamira counties had a wrangle over who owns Keroka. Vihiga and Kisumu counties have both laid claim on Maseno. These disputes are not good for this country.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a story that my mother told me about a dispute that was there among the Maragolis and Luos. These people used to fight over land until they had to devise a mechanism of surviving. You would find the Maragolis learning the Luo language and Luos learning the Maragoli language for them to survive. In such issues people make use of linguistic convergence. They use language to survive. It has been like that in the past.

These disputes have dire consequences. For instance, where there is dispute over land and then it happens that by the grace of God, it has some oil, gold and other mineral deposits. People might end up fighting for those resources because everyone wants to have a stake on them.

There are consequences of boundaries not being defined clearly. When you look at the Constitution, defining boundaries has no constitutional basis. This Bill has come at an opportune time when we can define county boundaries.

We have areas where violence erupts all the time. When there is violence, people lose their lives. We all know what happened in Kapedo some time back. Policemen were taken there to resolve the dispute, but they were all murdered. They were serving the

nation, but ended up dying while trying to resolve a dispute. When there is loss of life, children will remain orphans, wives will remain widows and husbands will remain widowers. However, the husbands can marry and remarry.

These disputes also have dire consequences for the unity of a family. Sometimes families are displaced. When there is displacement, children and women suffer most. Men can at least survive. When there is violence, bad things happen to women. Some are raped and subjected to all manner of injustice. We need to define our boundaries, but let us avoid violence when we are doing so.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, another consequence of this is hatred. When someone or a community feels that a particular land belongs to them or the land was theirs and another group took it, there is a possibility of having ethnic hatred. Constitutionally, this is very wrong for this country. National unity is very important. Therefore, we need to define our boundaries and live in peace.

I support this Bill in the strongest terms possible. Even though I support it, I feel it should be subjected to public participation. Public participation will help people know that there is already an existing problem. This problem is not starting now. It is a problem that was there even during the colonial times. Therefore, this Bill by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. wants to resolve those issues that were there and were not resolved during the colonial era.

When there is public participation, people will know there is already a problem, and the Government wants to resolve the problem. Psychologically, that makes people know that whatever is happening is for the good of the people of this country.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, ownership of something is very important. When people own a Bill, it will be very easy for them to accept it and be part of whatever is going on.

Even as we talk about public participation, there is also need for this Bill to put into consideration that probably there are people who already have title deeds in the disputed land. What will happen to those people because there are also consequences? If there are consequences, I want to suggest that Article 188 (a) can be used to resolve such issues. The article says that in the event of a dispute, Parliament needs to come in, then a Committee is formed and its resolutions are adopted and implemented to solve the problem.

There are times when committees are formed in this House, they come up with very good recommendations but they are not implemented. I want to suggest that if a Parliamentary taskforce is formed for this Bill, and then there is need for that taskforce to be empowered. That can only happen if their resolutions are implemented.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Article 188(2) emphasises on resolving such alterations. I strongly support the fact that counties should have boundaries defined because that is very important. If they are defined, then it means that if there are any disputes that will arise, then we can constitutionally resolve them by making use of Article 188. We can also give effect to Article 188 that seeks to resolve a land dispute.

With those few remarks, I support this Bill.

are able to bring it back and know what assets each county has, then we would be able to fully defend devolution and also defend the boundaries. If I know that my land or the land of the people of Narok is being claimed by the people of Migori or Nakuru and we settle the issue of boundaries, that will help us resolve the dispute.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to also add my voice and support this Bill that clearly defines the boundaries. This is going to be helpful in areas where there is conflict.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a dispute between Kisumu and Vihiga counties over the location of Maseno. Is it in Bunyore land which is Vihiga County or in Luoland which is Kisumu County? This issue has spilled over to the location of Maseno University to the effect that it even affects how the administration of that university is done. This is the more reason why I support the passing of this Bill.

We have more people from Kisumu employed at the university and those from Vihiga who are the Wanyore feel marginalised. They then ask why they are being marginalised in their own university. It is very important that the issue of Maseno is dealt with. The creation of the Independent County Boundaries Commission (IBCC) - which is a recommendation that is in this Bill - will help deal with that matter once and for all.

That issue of Maseno has even become a campaign tool. If you are looking for votes from Luanda Constituency and say that you will sort out the Maseno issue, you are guaranteed to be voted for. It has become a campaign tool but no solution has been reached. Therefore, this Bill will give us a solution to that dispute over the location of Maseno.

I will not even talk about the violence that happens from time to time in that area as they try to lay claim to that Maseno. That area is also very fertile. Other than the university, it has very good public primary schools that do very well in the Kenya Certificate of Primary Education (KCPE) , so everyone wants to lay claim to it.

If this Bill is going to bring a solution to the issue of Maseno, I support.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill from the onset because it addresses an area of concern. We already have disputes with boundaries of counties and there has been no mechanism of sorting it out. As it has been said, Article 6 sets out that the 47 counties are what is recognized as being the divisions into which the territory of Kenya is made. I have been looking at that Districts and Provinces Act and I used to wonder how it was established.

I am surprised and happy to know that it was Sen. Wako who did it. I was telling him that there were a lot of injustices in the boundaries Act itself. Since, the colonialists used to tell people where the boundaries were and everybody knew it.

Nevertheless, this is somebody who went with cartographers and came up with beacons where you cannot imagine; what we used to know as riverbeds and all that. Now we have boundaries going over mountains. We need to go back and correct from the colonial boundaries of 1963.That is the starting point and we have to go in after establishing this Bill into an Act.

I thank Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for coming up with this process. If you check Clause 18; ‘A Petition to Parliament’, that should be “to the Senate”. We have to be very clear on where the Petition starts. It should come to the Senate, then the Senate should come up with a special Committee. This committee will then come up with a report which will either say it goes to mediation or alteration. That is where the National

Assembly comes in and it is very clear that if they do not agree with us, the report will die. If they agree, then we go to mediation which the Senators have the precedent to form, which is a clear process at least.

The other issue is; if we agree that there should be an Independent County Boundaries Commission then Clause 24 which says ‘whenever parliament - does it mean that for every dispute you will have an Independent Counties Boundaries Commission? Since, it says ‘whenever parliament under Section 23 resolves that an Independent Counties Boundaries Commission be established.’ It means then every time with every dispute, we will be having a new Commission.

It will be costly and if you look at the membership of that commission, they do not have bearing on the counties in dispute unlike the mediation Committee which has persons from the disputing counties. This one has composition which is straight forward: A Commissioner of the Independent Elections and Boundaries Commission, the National Lands Commission, two persons nominated by the Council of Governors then two persons from the professional body of surveyors. These are people who are not affected by where the dispute is. Subsequently, this could be a Standing Commission because it does not need to be formed for every dispute.

We also have to check if we have to deal with the National Assembly and where they will come in. We have had cases where Bills go to coolers in the National Assembly and then they resurrect as a National Assembly Bill so that they will be the ones running the process, not the Senate .We also have to see how this one can go through the process and be an Act which will be useful. I will not like to dwell on this Bill a lot because I fully support it and my issues are with the 1992 boundaries and not the Bill. I will allow us to go back into those boundaries. I hope it does not say that those boundaries are cast in stone and that you cannot review them. What we are reviewing is actually those boundaries of 1992.

I support the Bill.

Thank you, Sen. (Eng.) Hargura. Yes, Sen. (Prof.) Ekal.

Consequently, it will be impossible to give that mandate to some Independent County Boundaries Commission through an Act of Parliament. It will not be possible to form a Commission that will be under IEBC. To me, that would be ultra vires of the Constitution which has stated that IEBC should only look into boundaries of wards and constituencies.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the IEBC is overwhelmed by the work that it already has. It has to look at referenda and all the many elections under the Constitution. The other day, they were assisting the Law Society of Kenya (LSK) in the elections. I think they are overburdened. We should not overburden them with this sensitive mandate of looking into the boundaries of counties.

It is sensitive because we have heard a very able submission by the Senator for Isiolo County on what is going on in her county. In my area, there is a lot of sensitivity in as far as the boundary of Vihiga, Siaya and Kisumu counties is concerned. It would have been dealt with earlier but it could not because under the old Constitution, that boundary was provincial. Therefore, it could not have been dealt with without amending the Constitution which is a difficult thing to do.

I, therefore, commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for filling this lacuna that we have in the Constitution and in our laws. I would like to assure Sen. Fatuma that all that she is complaining about lies within the mandate of the Mediation Committee. Amongst the principles to be taken into account are historical and cultural ties which she has complained about. What is important is people must be consulted in all decision-making processes.

Public participation is strengthened in this Bill by saying that the view of the communities affected must be taken into account. Therefore, I will not go into the issue of explaining the Mediation Committee and the Commission that will be formed because it has been said by the Senate Majority Leader and the Mover of the Bill and I do not have to repeat that. I support them in saying that in a dispute of this nature, the mediation principle is very important. This is where experts mediate the community, listen to the views and can come up with a decision on the issue.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I noticed the other day that there was some land dispute in Nandi County involving the Cabinet Secretary (CS) of Lands and Physical Planning. When I read that history, it appeared that there had been a committee of elders which looked into the history and mediated that dispute. That is the way it should go. That is the type of way that boundary disputes must be dealt with. Traditionally, we meet, discuss, conciliate and reach a decision. That is the way it should go.

In supporting this Bill, I have a bit of emotions attached to it. The Districts and Provinces Act, 1992 which I drafted and moved in Parliament way back in 1992 will be repealed. I drafted and moved it in Parliament and made sure that it was enacted. At that time, it was to fill a void.

At Independence, we had 16 or 20 districts. In the course of time, more districts were formed yet they did not have basis in law. Therefore, I commissioned a cartographer and a team which went around the districts which existed at that time. They produced a report which formed the basis of the Schedule to that Act with regard to the boundaries. I am glad that although it is being repealed, the substantive part of it has been preserved.

The First Schedule of this Bill which delineates the boundaries of the various districts is lifted from the Bill that I piloted through Parliament and commissioned a cartographer to set out the boundaries.

Subsequently – and that is why I said that the issue of boundaries is very emotive

However, I agree with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., and the Majority Leader that, maybe, Nairobi should have been counted separately. Now that he is of that view and he was a Chairperson of a Committee that made some proposals to amend the Constitution in the last Senate, I hope that now as the Senate Majority Leader, he will take up that Report, and together with the enrichment of more amendments, like the one we are now discussing, we should be able to at least make some amendments to the Constitution.

I hope that we can do it within two-and-a-half years of our term. We will not carry out proper amendments to the Constitution because of the politics of after two or three years. Therefore, now is the time to address all the constitutional issues that should be addressed. If possible, we should have amendments and a referendum within two years. That way, we can leave three years for those who want to politic.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I support.

Thank you, Sen. Wako. Sen. Cherargei, it is your turn. Is the Senator not in the Chamber? Sen. (Dr.) Musuruve.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this Bill. I commend Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for this Bill, which I support strongly.

Article 6 of the Constitution provides that Kenya is divided into counties, but it does not define how the counties will be divided. The fact that it does not define the counties is already a problem in this country. Why is it so? It is because of the disputes that are likely to arise as a result of land issues.

Just to cite a few examples, we have had quite a number of disputes concerning land issues. Meru and Isiolo counties have had land disputes. Meru and Tharaka-Nithi counties have also had land issues. Even Kisii and Nyamira counties had a wrangle over who owns Keroka. Vihiga and Kisumu counties have both laid claim on Maseno. These disputes are not good for this country.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a story that my mother told me about a dispute that was there among the Maragolis and Luos. These people used to fight over land until they had to devise a mechanism of surviving. You would find the Maragolis learning the Luo language and Luos learning the Maragoli language for them to survive. In such issues people make use of linguistic convergence. They use language to survive. It has been like that in the past.

These disputes have dire consequences. For instance, where there is dispute over land and then it happens that by the grace of God, it has some oil, gold and other mineral deposits. People might end up fighting for those resources because everyone wants to have a stake on them.

There are consequences of boundaries not being defined clearly. When you look at the Constitution, defining boundaries has no constitutional basis. This Bill has come at an opportune time when we can define county boundaries.

We have areas where violence erupts all the time. When there is violence, people lose their lives. We all know what happened in Kapedo some time back. Policemen were taken there to resolve the dispute, but they were all murdered. They were serving the

nation, but ended up dying while trying to resolve a dispute. When there is loss of life, children will remain orphans, wives will remain widows and husbands will remain widowers. However, the husbands can marry and remarry.

These disputes also have dire consequences for the unity of a family. Sometimes families are displaced. When there is displacement, children and women suffer most. Men can at least survive. When there is violence, bad things happen to women. Some are raped and subjected to all manner of injustice. We need to define our boundaries, but let us avoid violence when we are doing so.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, another consequence of this is hatred. When someone or a community feels that a particular land belongs to them or the land was theirs and another group took it, there is a possibility of having ethnic hatred. Constitutionally, this is very wrong for this country. National unity is very important. Therefore, we need to define our boundaries and live in peace.

I support this Bill in the strongest terms possible. Even though I support it, I feel it should be subjected to public participation. Public participation will help people know that there is already an existing problem. This problem is not starting now. It is a problem that was there even during the colonial times. Therefore, this Bill by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. wants to resolve those issues that were there and were not resolved during the colonial era.

When there is public participation, people will know there is already a problem, and the Government wants to resolve the problem. Psychologically, that makes people know that whatever is happening is for the good of the people of this country.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, ownership of something is very important. When people own a Bill, it will be very easy for them to accept it and be part of whatever is going on.

Even as we talk about public participation, there is also need for this Bill to put into consideration that probably there are people who already have title deeds in the disputed land. What will happen to those people because there are also consequences? If there are consequences, I want to suggest that Article 188 (a) can be used to resolve such issues. The article says that in the event of a dispute, Parliament needs to come in, then a Committee is formed and its resolutions are adopted and implemented to solve the problem.

There are times when committees are formed in this House, they come up with very good recommendations but they are not implemented. I want to suggest that if a Parliamentary taskforce is formed for this Bill, and then there is need for that taskforce to be empowered. That can only happen if their resolutions are implemented.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Article 188(2) emphasises on resolving such alterations. I strongly support the fact that counties should have boundaries defined because that is very important. If they are defined, then it means that if there are any disputes that will arise, then we can constitutionally resolve them by making use of Article 188. We can also give effect to Article 188 that seeks to resolve a land dispute.

With those few remarks, I support this Bill.

Let us have Sen. Were.

Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to also add my voice and support this Bill that clearly defines the boundaries. This is going to be helpful in areas where there is conflict.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a dispute between Kisumu and Vihiga counties over the location of Maseno. Is it in Bunyore land which is Vihiga County or in Luoland which is Kisumu County? This issue has spilled over to the location of Maseno University to the effect that it even affects how the administration of that university is done. This is the more reason why I support the passing of this Bill.

We have more people from Kisumu employed at the university and those from Vihiga who are the Wanyore feel marginalised. They then ask why they are being marginalised in their own university. It is very important that the issue of Maseno is dealt with. The creation of the Independent County Boundaries Commission (IBCC) - which is a recommendation that is in this Bill - will help deal with that matter once and for all.

That issue of Maseno has even become a campaign tool. If you are looking for votes from Luanda Constituency and say that you will sort out the Maseno issue, you are guaranteed to be voted for. It has become a campaign tool but no solution has been reached. Therefore, this Bill will give us a solution to that dispute over the location of Maseno.

I will not even talk about the violence that happens from time to time in that area as they try to lay claim to that Maseno. That area is also very fertile. Other than the university, it has very good public primary schools that do very well in the Kenya Certificate of Primary Education (KCPE) , so everyone wants to lay claim to it.

If this Bill is going to bring a solution to the issue of Maseno, I support.

Thank you Senator. Let us have Senator (Eng.) Hargura Godhana.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill from the onset because it addresses an area of concern. We already have disputes with boundaries of counties and there has been no mechanism of sorting it out. As it has been said, Article 6 sets out that the 47 counties are what is recognized as being the divisions into which the territory of Kenya is made. I have been looking at that Districts and Provinces Act and I used to wonder how it was established.

I am surprised and happy to know that it was Sen. Wako who did it. I was telling him that there were a lot of injustices in the boundaries Act itself. Since, the colonialists used to tell people where the boundaries were and everybody knew it.

Nevertheless, this is somebody who went with cartographers and came up with beacons where you cannot imagine; what we used to know as riverbeds and all that. Now we have boundaries going over mountains. We need to go back and correct from the colonial boundaries of 1963.That is the starting point and we have to go in after establishing this Bill into an Act.

I thank Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. for coming up with this process. If you check Clause 18; ‘A Petition to Parliament’, that should be “to the Senate”. We have to be very clear on where the Petition starts. It should come to the Senate, then the Senate should come up with a special Committee. This committee will then come up with a report which will either say it goes to mediation or alteration. That is where the National

Assembly comes in and it is very clear that if they do not agree with us, the report will die. If they agree, then we go to mediation which the Senators have the precedent to form, which is a clear process at least.

The other issue is; if we agree that there should be an Independent County Boundaries Commission then Clause 24 which says ‘whenever parliament - does it mean that for every dispute you will have an Independent Counties Boundaries Commission? Since, it says ‘whenever parliament under Section 23 resolves that an Independent Counties Boundaries Commission be established.’ It means then every time with every dispute, we will be having a new Commission.

It will be costly and if you look at the membership of that commission, they do not have bearing on the counties in dispute unlike the mediation Committee which has persons from the disputing counties. This one has composition which is straight forward: A Commissioner of the Independent Elections and Boundaries Commission, the National Lands Commission, two persons nominated by the Council of Governors then two persons from the professional body of surveyors. These are people who are not affected by where the dispute is. Subsequently, this could be a Standing Commission because it does not need to be formed for every dispute.

We also have to check if we have to deal with the National Assembly and where they will come in. We have had cases where Bills go to coolers in the National Assembly and then they resurrect as a National Assembly Bill so that they will be the ones running the process, not the Senate .We also have to see how this one can go through the process and be an Act which will be useful. I will not like to dwell on this Bill a lot because I fully support it and my issues are with the 1992 boundaries and not the Bill. I will allow us to go back into those boundaries. I hope it does not say that those boundaries are cast in stone and that you cannot review them. What we are reviewing is actually those boundaries of 1992.

I support the Bill.

Thank you, Sen. (Eng.) Hargura. Yes, Sen. (Prof.) Ekal.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me a chance to say a few words over this Bill. I support the Bill. The Bill is timely. It is going to come with a lot of problems because you have heard that it may not pass. Some people will shoot it down or there are just going to be problems in trying to correct the injustices that have been carried out in various places in the country. Standing here today on behalf of Turkana County, we have this situation that we hope---

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Ekal! You will have a balance of 19 minutes when the Bill appears on the Order Paper next.

Hon. Senators, it is now time to adjourn the House. Therefore, the Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 8th March, 2018 at 2. 30p.m.

The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.