October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Wednesday, 7th October, 2015

Hon. Senators, I have a Communication to make on the notice of Motion by Sen. Murungi. On Tuesday, 22nd September, 2015, the Senator for Meru County, Sen. Kiraitu Murungi gave a Notice of Motion whose main thrust is to request the Office of the President and the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development to establish a task force to survey, mark and fix beacons for all county boundaries. Thereafter, several Senators, including Sen. (Dr.) Machage, Sen. Murkomen, Sen. Khaniri and Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. raised reservations on whether the Notice of Motion was proper in terms of procedure, and whether it was constitutional, given the framework regarding alteration of county boundaries as provided for in Article 188 of the Constitution. In addition, there were assertions that a similar Motion, sponsored by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., had been passed by the House and that, indeed, a Bill on county boundaries was on the verge of introduction to the Senate. Hon. Senators, I will allow the Senators at the Bar to enter the Chamber given that some of them seem to be much appreciated in this Communication.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the record, I want to confirm that The County Boundaries Bill was withdrawn from the Order Paper during the First Reading because the schedules for two counties had been inadvertently omitted by the Government Printer. Therefore, in every sense of the word, the Senate has been seized of that Bill. The amended Bill is pending for your approval.

I cannot agree more, except when I make the Communication, I have to be careful with those kinds of considerations. I know for a fact that the Bill is there.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for your wise ruling. However, I want to go on record by making the following statement. The passing of Sen. Murungi’s Motion will be a recipe for anarchy and disturbance in the counties.

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Machage? You may wish to repeat. I have received a Petition from Sen. Khaniri and I have reason to believe him.

Very well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, although verbal rewinding is not easy. Thank you for your wise ruling on the matter. However, I want to go on record by making the following statement: Sen. Murungi’s Motion will be a recipe for anarchy and disturbance at the county boundaries level. There are already skirmishes and quarrels on the same since Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. brought a Motion here and his intention to bring a Bill in the House on the same.

Sen. (Dr.) Machage, I wish to withdraw my words that Sen. Khaniri is always useful. That is exactly what I said in my statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order. Is it in order for Sen. (Dr.) Machage to go into the debate while you actually said that the merits and demerits will be discussed when the Motion is debated?

Absolutely. I said those are some of the issues you can raise. Sen. Ndiema has captured it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is very simple. I wish to record my sincere thanks and gratitude for saving my Motion which faced stiff resistance from some forces of which Sen. (Dr.) Machage is one. My Motion is intended to bring order and to reduce uncertainty and chaos that is happening as a result of these boundaries not being marked. We will contribute to the Motion when the time comes. I thank you for allowing this Motion to proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to plead that you re-state the sentiments you made that are normally very useful to the Chair in bringing some information. What Sen. (Dr.) Machage said is the exact opposite of what you had made in your ruling. He alleged that if Sen. Kiraitu Murungi’s Motion is passed, it will be a recipe for county boundaries conflict. That is not what you said. Having said that, I do fully respect your ruling. The Motion will come here and we will do justice to it. Some of us will definitely shoot it down because I believe there is no legal framework under which the Office of the President can survey, mark and fix beacons. That is my only problem with it. Why the office of the President? We think it is unconstitutional and we will revert back to Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.’s Motion, which is best anchored in the Constitution. It is only this House that has the mandate to deal with county boundaries, but not the Office of the President.

Hon. Senators, my attention has been drawn to the statements by my good friend Sen. George Khaniri. I want to make it abundantly clear. ‘Invariably’ he has been extremely useful to the Chair. ‘Invariably’ mark my word, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. However, I want to read that particular paragraph for the benefit of Sen. Khaniri and

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

By the way, you do not just challenge my rulings. I have already made a ruling and it is final, Sen. Wetangula. Let us proceed. The Motion is coming, you will decide.

On a point of order.

Sen. Wetangula, I have not given you the chance. I have allowed enough ventilations and they are repetitive. There was Sen. Ndiema and Sen. Kiraitu. If those two are not enough, the number was doubled.

Next Order!

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today Wednesday 7th, October 2015.

Sen. Murkomen, are you dealing with ‘B’? Sen. Murkomen order! Are you dealing with ‘B’ on Papers? I thought you had ‘A’ as well.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a member of the Legal Affairs Committee. The first one I laid on behalf of the Legal Affairs Committee. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope you heard me. The first one I laid as a member of the Legal Affairs Committee on behalf of the Chair, Legal Affairs Committee which Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and I, are members. However, I am the Chairman of the Committee.

Order, Sen. Murkomen! I had no doubt about your membership in the Committee and you laying the document. However, what surprised me is why you are clueless and you are the Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today, Wednesday, 7th October, 2015:- Annual Progress Report of the Commission for the Implementation of the Constitution for the year 2014/15.

Can we have the requests first, Hon. Senators?

Bw. Mzungumzishi, umesema kwanza tuanzie kwa wale wanataka kuuliza maswala fulani. Langu lilikuwa swala la mbeleni hivyo basi nitangoja kidogo.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring the attention of the House to my- --

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are at a loss; what name did Sen. Mong’are call you? Musungumusi? That is a new one. Could he repeat it? We do not know whether it is a Kisii name or---

Bw. Mzungumzishi, yanaonekana ndugu Seneta wa Meru hakuwa hapa wakati mwalimu, Sen. Zani alipoleta neno mpya linatumika badala ya neno “Spika”. Hilo ndilo neno mwafaka badala ya “spika.”

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I studied Kiswahili language up to Form 6 level, but I never heard that word, ‘musungumusishi’. Pengine msemaji--.

Order! Sen. Murungi, hukusikia neno gani?

‘Musungumusishi’

Sen. Kiraitu nafikiri muda umesonga tangu umalize kidato cha sita na wakati Sen. Okong’o alipoenda shule.

Mr. Speaker Sir, Is it in order for Sen. Kiraitu to assume that the word ‘mzungumzishi’ is a type of mzungu?

For avoidance of doubt, mimi naridhika na hilo neno.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I bring to the attention of the House my attendance today after a long absence. I was indisposed. I was out in the United States of America (USA) where I underwent a successful surgical procedure. I thank God that I am back.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, Senators! I think the system is now working. If it is not, we will do it manually. Please, check to confirm if it is working. Why are the microphones not working? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is on now.

Proceed, Sen. Wetangula. Please, be brief so that we can move on to the next item. The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief. In this Chamber, if you call a meeting concerning education, health and security, you will be sure that every single delegation will turn up because it affects virtually every county. The distinguished Chairperson of the Committee on Health has announced today that tomorrow at

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is on now.

Proceed, Sen. Wetangula. Please, be brief so that we can move on to the next item. The Senate Minority Leader (

Order, Members! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I thought that at your graduation, you took the Hippocratic Oath. I do not want to use the opposite that the Senate Minority Leader is using. The fact that he said that he was indisposed and he is now ready and has invited the CS for Health to come tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. to deal with all the pending matters before the Committee, is sufficient that he has fully recovered.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you, I would like to pay my tribute to Sen. (Dr.) Kuti. He has done something which is unprecedented in this country whereby leaders think it is a crime for the public to know when they are unwell. He has demystified that and told Kenyans that he has just come out of surgery. Because of the privilege I have of being a doctor, I want to also say that the young doctor who was my junior in the medical school was suffering from a swelling in the parathyroid gland. Therefore, that nodule was surgically removed. How I wish that the facilities that we have in the United States of America (USA) could also be found here so that more Kenyans who cannot afford to travel abroad can have access to life saving procedures. Congratulations, my brother. An hon. Senator: How do you declare somebody’s illness in public?

Order, Members! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I thought that at your graduation, you took the Hippocratic Oath. I do not want to use the opposite that the Senate Minority Leader is using. The fact that he said that he was indisposed and he is now ready and has invited the CS for Health to come tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. to deal with all the pending matters before the Committee, is sufficient that he has fully recovered.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

Hon. Senators, the results of the Division are as follows:-

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Next Order!

Next Order!

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I have no idea what the Senator for Kakamega is talking about. Whatever I said is on record and I think the HANSARD will bear me witness. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Very well. I rule Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale out of order. I order that whatever you said is expunged from the records of today’s proceedings.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

……. (Words expunged at the order of the Temporary Chairperson)

I am not on record.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I rise under the provisions of Standing Order No.139 to request the Temporary Chairman to postpone the session so that the Committee can report progress to the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Before the Chairperson of the Committee of the Whole reports progress, I request the Chair to find that the words that were expunged from the records were the same words that are the reason the House is rising to report progress. I request that my words be reinstated on the HANSARD because they are not offensive in any way. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this might be unique, but I know that under Standing Order No.1, you have the power to make this finding. It will be very bad for my grandson who will be a Senator in Kakamega to come here and find that my words were expunged only to be reintroduced by a different senator.

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! Even if I was to consider your suggestion, there are Standing Orders to be quoted and proper execution of the same done. Sen. Khaniri, did you actually make the remarks that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is purporting to put into your mouth?

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I have no idea what the Senator for Kakamega is talking about. Whatever I said is on record and I think the HANSARD will bear me witness. The Temporary Chairperson (

The Chairperson of the Committee of the Whole had ruled and that was the session of the Committee of the Whole. Now, the House is back and the Chairperson is supposed to report. Before he did so, he rose on a point of order on a matter which has not been brought to my attention. To me, I feel that at least you are completely out of order yourself, if the status quo will have to remain as per the way the Committee of the Whole was. Now, I ask the Chairperson to report progess.

Very well. I rule Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale out of order. I order that whatever you said is expunged from the records of today’s proceedings.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. I do not have any problem in having my words expunged, however, you have to specify – for purposes of the record – what it is that I said that is not admissible, so that it is that particular part that is expunged. I would like your directive to be clearer. The Temporary Chairperson (

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! I am not here to parrot or repeat what you say. Sen. Khaniri, are you ready to proceed? Please, approach the Table. (Sen. Khaniri approached the Table)

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Before the Chairperson of the Committee of the Whole reports progress, I request the Chair to find that the words that were expunged from the records were the same words that are the reason the House is rising to report progress. I request that my words be reinstated on the HANSARD because they are not offensive in any way. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this might be unique, but I know that under Standing Order No.1, you have the power to make this finding. It will be very bad for my grandson who will be a Senator in Kakamega to come here and find that my words were expunged only to be reintroduced by a different senator.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Sen. (Dr) Khalwale is a seasoned Member of this House, and has actually been in Parliament for the last three terms. He knows the procedure and the process to follow if at any one time he disputes the ruling of a Speaker or a Chair. Is he in order to raise that point of order the way he did it? The Senate Minority Leader (

-

THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new subclause immediately after subclause (1) –

(1A)

An appointing authority shall, in issuing a notice under subsection

(1)

, notify the members of the public on the proposed nomination through such media and platforms established under section 91 of the County Governments Act as it considers appropriate. Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, the new provision seeks to ensure that there is public participation in the process. We need to engage the public in this process using the mechanisms for public participation that may be established by a county government pursuant to Section 91 of the County Governments Act. It is expected that involving the public through such mechanisms would ensure that the information regarding the approval hearing reaches as many members of the public as possible and that they have adequate time to submit their statements contesting the suitability of a candidate in good time. Subclause 1

(A)

seeks to make the process of engaging the public more meaningful.

The Temporary Chairperson

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage)

: The Division will come later. Next Clause!

Clause 7

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. You cannot possibly be a judge in your own cause. The distinguished Senator for Migori was the Chair of the Committee of the Whole. He made a ruling which carried the moment. The distinguished Senator for Kakamega has, after fresh developments, asked the Speaker, to make a ruling on the matter that new circumstances have arisen, and for reasons that the distinguished Senator for Vihiga advanced and convinced the same Chair, he adjourned and he is reporting progress. So, the person to rule, I am not saying which direction, is the Speaker and not the Chairperson of the Committee who is a functus officio on the matter.

-

THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended –

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the Climate Change Bill, (National Assembly Bill No.1 of 2014) , and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee on the said report.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to second the Senator for Vihiga. I want it on record that the very reasons the House moved from the Committee of the Whole, to come and report progress to you, were advanced by the Senator for Vihiga which convinced us. The same reasons had earlier been advanced by the Senator for Kakamega and the Chair of the Committee went ahead to expunge my words. Because I respect the Chairperson of the Committee of the Whole, let these words remain in the HANSARD the way I have put it. The true position of the Committee of the House in progress is that that is how the Chairperson conducted himself. I support.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

-

THAT, Clause 10 of the Bill be amended –

- THAT the First Schedule be amended –

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I agree with the Chairman. However, I appeal to him to think hard about the new insertion that requires the candidate to declare his or her place of birth. When you think about it critically, you will find that, that could be abused to this extent. A person might have been born in Kakamega County and that is the only attachment he or she has with Kakamega. He or she may end up being a resident of Uasin Gishu. When he or she is being vetted and a particular position is to be reserved for the locals, the person – purely because of the place of birth indicated in his or her identification card showing that he or she is not from the county in which he or she is being interviewed – could run the risk of losing the job. How I wish that the issue of “place of birth” be replaced with “place of permanent residence.”

- THAT, Clause 6 of the Bill be amended by inserting the following new subclause immediately after subclause (1) – (1A) An appointing authority shall, in issuing a notice under subsection (1) , notify the members of the public on the proposed nomination through such media and platforms established under section 91 of the County Governments Act as it considers appropriate. Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, the new provision seeks to ensure that there is public participation in the process. We need to engage the public in this process using the mechanisms for public participation that may be established by a county government pursuant to Section 91 of the County Governments Act. It is expected that involving the public through such mechanisms would ensure that the information regarding the approval hearing reaches as many members of the public as possible and that they have adequate time to submit their statements contesting the suitability of a candidate in good time. Subclause 1 (A) seeks to make the process of engaging the public more meaningful. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg that we do it the easier way. Allow me the leeway of a few minutes to convince the Chairman to move it so that I do not go through the procedures of giving notice and writing to you. Since he will be moving it himself, that way will be faster. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Very well. I will come back to the First Schedule later. Let us move on. Second Schedule

Clause 2

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Division will come later. Next! Title and Clause 1 The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Could the Chairperson approach the Table?

The Division will come later. Next Clause! Clause 7

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee of the Whole reports progress on its consideration on The Public Appointments

Bill

(Senate Bill No.20 of 2014)

and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow.

The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : Under what Standing Order is that?

-

THAT, Clause 7 of the Bill be amended –

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Could the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole give us a report?

What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I wish to support that amendment because the issue of approval is a serious matter. We should, therefore, not rush the process because, at the end of the day, the county will be stuck for five years with somebody who was not properly interrogated and could fail the functions of the county. I beg to support. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, allow me to report progress---

The Division will come later. Next Clause!

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I agree with you entirely, but if we were to respect that principle, which to me is important, then just before progress is reported and after participating in debate, the delegate would then retreat to the Speaker’s room because he is a Member of the Speaker’s Panel. For your information, when you come to take the Chair, the clerk is supposed to alert the House that the Temporary Speaker is now coming. That is the rule.

Very well. That will be observed later. Temporary Chairperson.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senator, I did not gag you. Did I?

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, you did not. (Question of the amendment proposed) The Temporary Chairperson (

There is no amendment to Clauses 11, 12 and 13. The Division will be at the end. (Question, that Clauses 11, 12 and 13 be part of the Bill, proposed) First Schedule

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir. I rise under Standing Order 139 to report progress and seek leave to sit again tomorrow because I have just received the notes on the amendments just two minutes ago. The Temporary Chairperson (Sen. (Dr.) Machage) : It is a matter of procedure. You cannot report progress now. Just approach the Table and we will show you what to do.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I agree with the Chairman. However, I appeal to him to think hard about the new insertion that requires the candidate to declare his or her place of birth. When you think about it critically, you will find that, that could be abused to this extent. A person might have been born in Kakamega County and that is the only attachment he or she has with Kakamega. He or she may end up being a resident of Uasin Gishu. When he or she is being vetted and a particular position is to be reserved for the locals, the person – purely because of the place of birth indicated in his or her identification card showing that he or she is not from the county in which he or she is being interviewed – could run the risk of losing the job. How I wish that the issue of “place of birth” be replaced with “place of permanent residence.”

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg that we do it the easier way. Allow me the leeway of a few minutes to convince the Chairman to move it so that I do not go through the procedures of giving notice and writing to you. Since he will be moving it himself, that way will be faster. The Temporary Chairperson (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole is considering The County Early Childhood Education Bill (Senate Bill No.32 of 2014) and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with Committee in the said Report. Sen. Madzayo seconded.

Hon. Senators, we had deferred Statements and maybe there are some Members and Chairpersons who may be having Statements to seek or issue respectively. We could do justice by allowing Statements to be issued before we move to the next Order. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a few weeks ago the Senator for Narok, Sen. Ole Ntutu sought a Statement which was referred to the Committee of County Public Accounts and Investments and he wanted a report on the projects listed, their status in respect of when the projects were launched, who were the contractors, the cost of each project and how much has been paid to them, what is the balance and the balance to date, what is the current status of each of the above projects and the expected completion date of the projects. Allow me to answer the first aspect of his Statement as follows: I promised to this House that I would read this Statement after receiving a hearing from the Governor himself. The Governor declined to come and instead sent the Cabinet Secretary who submitted this report. The report has been discussed with my Committee. I live it to the Chair to decide what to do with the Governor who deliberately refused to come because, had he come we would have interrogated his answer further so as to have a more qualitative response. If you allow me, I would read to the House the Statement as it is. There is no value addition from the Committee for the reason that the governor did not come.

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee of the Whole reports progress on its consideration on The Public Appointments (County Assembly Approval) Bill (Senate Bill No.20 of 2014) and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow. The Temporary Chairperson (

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Under what Standing Order is that?

Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. This is in pursuant to Standing Order No.139. I am obliged.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was just concluding. Therefore, I am seeking that clarification.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. With all due respect we might be killing a good tradition. The tradition has been that when the House reports progress to the Speaker, he is assumed not to have been in the House and that is why progress is being reported to him. The old tradition where the Speaker would come from the Speaker’s Office to the Chair and receive progress seems to be changing. It is being replaced with the Speaker coming from the Plenary to receive progress. This might not be a very nice practice. I want to urge that the Chair reconsiders this, so that speakers should start conducting themselves with the decorum that has traditionally been there.

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, go on and report.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, allow me to report progress---

Just continue in English.

Okay. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the County Governments Act, it is provided that the official recipient and correspondent on behalf of the County Government is the Cabinet Secretary. Going by that Act, the Committee then decided that whatever the County Secretary said were not his words. He was merely writing or responding to the Senate the position of the County Government of Narok.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I agree with you entirely, but if we were to respect that principle, which to me is important, then just before progress is reported and after participating in debate, the delegate would then retreat to the Speaker’s room because he is a Member of the Speaker’s Panel. For your information, when you come to take the Chair, the clerk is supposed to alert the House that the Temporary Speaker is now coming. That is the rule.

Very well. That will be observed later. Temporary Chairperson.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I stand a bit hesitantly because I am a Member of County Public Accounts and Investments Committee and I was not in attendance because I was chairing the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights.

The issue of Narok County is an issue that has been before this House for a long time and, therefore, may be the Committee wanted to dispose of it, one way or another. But, is it really in order, in disposing it, to do it in furtherance of impunity? To me, taking into account what Sen. Madzayo has said, I support him; it is the governor who ought to have come. The Committee summoned the governor. Until the governor comes in, we have a Statement from the county secretary and, therefore, we are saying the governor is right, we shall continue with the county secretary’ his statement.

I was not there but I am surprised that the Committee did not see it fit to immediately order some arrests through the procedures for the governor to come. To recommend that we have received a statement but we cannot read it because of the precedent from the ruling of the Speaker on the matter, and though it may take time, we feel that the governor should be summoned so that we can interrogate him and to guide the Senate as a Committee on steps that ought to be taken. It is as if we are abandoning our responsibility; we say, okay, we have got a letter; it is up to you now to see what to do. Whereas, as a Committee, we ought to have taken some action and summoned the governor so that we can interrogate him and give some guidance to this Committee on the way forward. So, is it in order that we should continue to further impunity on this matter by allowing such a Statement to be read on the Floor of the House?

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, before you respond, let us get the point of order from Sen. (Dr.) Machage.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Ntutu wants to say something.

We will also give him an opportunity to inform the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This matter has taken too long. I can remember that at one time I went to Maasai forest to investigate the Narok issue yet up to now we are still dilly-dallying. I know Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, and this is not a matter that will be in their hands for more than one month. He really needs to dispose of this because his

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of The County Early Childhood Education Bill (Senate Bill No.32 of 2014) and seek leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole is considering The County Early Childhood Education Bill (Senate Bill No.32 of 2014) and seeks leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do agree with Committee in the said Report. Sen. Madzayo seconded.

Hon. Senators, we had deferred Statements and maybe there are some Members and Chairpersons who may be having Statements to seek or issue respectively. We could do justice by allowing Statements to be issued before we move to the next Order. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a few weeks ago the Senator for Narok, Sen. Ole Ntutu sought a Statement which was referred to the Committee of County Public Accounts and Investments and he wanted a report on the projects listed, their status in respect of when the projects were launched, who were the contractors, the cost of each project and how much has been paid to them, what is the balance and the balance to date, what is the current status of each of the above projects and the expected completion date of the projects. Allow me to answer the first aspect of his Statement as follows: I promised to this House that I would read this Statement after receiving a hearing from the Governor himself. The Governor declined to come and instead sent the Cabinet Secretary who submitted this report. The report has been discussed with my Committee. I live it to the Chair to decide what to do with the Governor who deliberately refused to come because, had he come we would have interrogated his answer further so as to have a more qualitative response. If you allow me, I would read to the House the Statement as it is. There is no value addition from the Committee for the reason that the governor did not come.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am sorry to interrupt the able Chairman of the Committee but he said that what he is reading to us is not a report of the Committee because they could not make a report due to the absence of the governor. The Chair is reading to us what was delivered to the Committee, and I stand corrected, by the secretary. Is he in order to read us verbatim what he got from the secretary for Narok rather than his Committee sitting down and examining the report to determine whether it is true or not? We are now being treated to a raw report from the governor and the Committee has not had time to cross-examine him. This would have enabled them to bring us a refined response which the Senator for Narok can also cross-examine. I am asking that if the Committee has been unable to get the governor, there are machineries to be used to get him. He should use the machinery that is there in the Standing Orders to get the governor to come and give them the position before they can form an opinion and bring the report to the House. I am saying that what we are getting from the Chair is not from the Committee but from the governor.

Kwa hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuuliza kama ni sawa kwamba Mwenyekiti wa Kamati hii, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, ambaye tunasikilizana sana, kusoma jibu kutoka kwa mtu ambaye hana mamlaka hayo. Juzi nilikuwa ninataka kusoma jibu kutoka National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) ambalo lilikuwa limeandikwa na Mkurugenzi Mkuu. Wa kwanza kupinga kwamba nisisome nakala hiyo alikuwa Sen. Khaniri na aliyemfuata ni Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Leo yeye anarejelea msimamo ule ule wa kusoma barua. Seneti si mahali pa kusoma barua za watu hivi hivi. Hapana!

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. We are passing the blame to the Chair for no reason. Before he read the Statement, I heard him asking if he could do it with your permission. He was given a go ahead. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was on the right path because he had been given a go ahead. He got a go ahead from your silence. That is the same as saying go on. I do not think he has committed any crime. He has not infringed on any Standing Orders.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to also seek some clarification from the Chair. This is on matters touching on our counties’ finances. On several occasions, when we Senators raise issues in the House or in the Committees, they are misunderstood by the Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs) and others. The implication is that the Senator from a particular county is instigating questions or investigations touching on that. Therefore, I would like the Chairman to make a clarification in that any time his Committee is requesting the governors and other persons to come and answer questions touching on counties, it is not because a particular Senator has instigated that and even if it is so, what I believe is that his Committee is doing investigations on the audit reports from the Auditor- General---

Sen. Mungai, we are not debating.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was just concluding. Therefore, I am seeking that clarification.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Although Sen. Mungai was also on a point of order, Sen. Madzayo did rise on a point of order on matters that I think were very important that deserved to be disposed of first and Sen. Musila also raised the same concern. Would I be in order to demand that you dispose of that first before you entertain Sen. Mungai’s request? Temporary Speaker (

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir. I want to thank you for that clarity in your directive. I was itching that we must do something on this Floor, like we have done today, lest somebody thinks he could stop me. I am alive to the fact that the Constitution, in Article125, gives me the powers of the High Court in summoning anybody to come before the Committee. But because some people are playing the merry-go-round, I wanted them while watching live, to know that if you allow me to say it in Kiswahili so, that the good Maasai people can hear - it is not that they do not hear English - wajue kwamba sasa gari limeondoka kutoka stesheni na kwamba yeyote yule ambaye atalala, kukaa ama kusimama kwenye reli, tutapita na yeye. Ni lazima wizi ukiwapo kule Narok, walipe pesa ambazo wameibia wanainchi. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Concerning this question which has taken about three months, we have enough evidence to prove that the money was not banked. According to Annexture 32 of the Narok Petition, which was signed by one Chief Executive Officer of Mara Conservancy, Brian Heath, he has admitted in writing that the money was not deposited into their account. The Auditor-General also confirms in his report that the money was not a deposited into their account. What else does the Committee need? I raised these issues with the Committee on the issues that were not addressed.

Sen. Ntutu, we referred the matter back to the Committee. If you will appear before the Committee and tell them what you are saying now, I think that would be the right procedure, not in the House now. Next Order!

Order, Senator. We do not have a Senator PC here.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, many times Sen. Musila calls me “doctor” and I call him “PC”. It is true that I am reading the raw Statement as submitted to the Committee by the Cabinet Secretary. I was aware of the bottle-neck that has since been unraveled by Sen. Madzayo. That is why I said the Senator got it right, but with your permission, I would like to read the Report. Yes, indeed, we subjected this report to the Committee Sitting this morning and it was our decision as a Committee that this matter of Narok County is going round. It looks like people

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Just continue in English.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill because of the importance that I attach to this matter. Indeed, this is national problem. As you will recall, this is not the first time that we have the opportunity to discus about matters concerning HIV/ADS which has become a major problem for many years in this country. Many lives have been lost, and we have not seen the end to this scourge despite the efforts that we have been making. As of now, the matter has been basically at the national level and we have not done much at the county level to appear to be fighting this scourge which is a national disaster. That is why I stand to strongly support this Bill. Now that the health function is devolved to the county level, the county AIDS control committees should be established so that counties can play their role. This is what is covered under Part 2A, of the Bill; that county AIDS control committees be established, funded and facilitated, so that they can play their role in this matter. While still on this, we are lamenting about lack of performance in the health sector by county governments. We have seen, for example, in some hospitals, my county included, cases where governors have gone ahead and erected very huge gates at health institutions to hoodwink the public that there is something going on inside. A huge gate costing Kshs7 million is erected at a health facility and there is no fence. But when you go inside these hospitals, there are no drugs. You wonder whether the priority is to do a gate and you do not supply drugs to the health institution. This is not a joke, but what is happening.

Unless we do something serious, as the Senate, to ensure that the county governments take health matters seriously, we are doomed to fail the public in service delivery, more so, when we are talking about HIV/AIDS, which as I said earlier has become such a huge problem which,

admittedly, even the national government has failed to control. We have even been involved in seeking help from outside like the Global Fund and every time the funds are withheld because of accountability reasons in the national Government.

So, I fear that unless we, as the Senate, put our foot down, people in the counties are going to continue suffering. Therefore, I think this Bill is timely. I congratulate Sen. (Dr.) Machage for bringing this matter so that county governments wake up to the issue of HIV/AIDS. We have already seen patients in counties suffering from simple diseases such as malaria. The other day, children in Busia County were given a wrong injection. Therefore, health matters in county governments must be put very clearly so that we ensure that this Government delivers.

Therefore, there is need for nutritional food to be equally provided to HIV/AIDS patients so that they eat food with vitamins – I understand omena is very good for that matter - and energy so that when the drugs are taken, they are useful to their bodies. It is only in this and other poor countries where people living with HIV/AIDS are known because they have no access to drugs and they do not have nutritious food to keep them healthy. In developing countries, you cannot recognise an HIV/AIDS patient, because they are looked after and eat very well and take the drugs regularly. Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir, I am advocating that the committees should not only be formed, but they should also be given resources. Again, I have said “resources” because the committees that were formed by the national Government in districts have failed because they were not given resources. So, these committees must be given resources and their recommendations must be implemented effectively. One of the recommendations I am sure must be the provision of drugs, testing and – though it may sound very far-fetched – the provision of food for those who are unable to be given food by the county governments. County governments have money for disasters, but instead of using that money on the people, governors use it for campaigns. They use it to transport people to rallies and carry red carpets and toilets for governors. So, it is high time that we took the necessary action to ensure that county governments do the right thing and give priority to health matters. There is no other priority that is more important than looking after our people as far as health matters are concerned. I support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I congratulate the distinguished Senator for Migori for bringing this Bill. I support the Bill for reasons that health is a devolved function. Being a devolved function, we must – as the Senate that defends and protects counties and their governments – ensure that devolved functions are properly and truly devolved to counties to help the people of this country. HIV/AIDS has been a cash cow and you know that there have been many questionable transactions and audit queries surrounding the management of HIV/AIDS funds, largely brought in by donors. Many donors, like the distinguished Senator for Kitui has said, have stopped funding HIV/AIDS activities because of the opaque manner in which it has been run, to the

Let me dispose of what you had asked earlier.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I stand a bit hesitantly because I am a Member of County Public Accounts and Investments Committee and I was not in attendance because I was chairing the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights.

The issue of Narok County is an issue that has been before this House for a long time and, therefore, may be the Committee wanted to dispose of it, one way or another. But, is it really in order, in disposing it, to do it in furtherance of impunity? To me, taking into account what Sen. Madzayo has said, I support him; it is the governor who ought to have come. The Committee summoned the governor. Until the governor comes in, we have a Statement from the county secretary and, therefore, we are saying the governor is right, we shall continue with the county secretary’ his statement.

I was not there but I am surprised that the Committee did not see it fit to immediately order some arrests through the procedures for the governor to come. To recommend that we have received a statement but we cannot read it because of the precedent from the ruling of the Speaker on the matter, and though it may take time, we feel that the governor should be summoned so that we can interrogate him and to guide the Senate as a Committee on steps that ought to be taken. It is as if we are abandoning our responsibility; we say, okay, we have got a letter; it is up to you now to see what to do. Whereas, as a Committee, we ought to have taken some action and summoned the governor so that we can interrogate him and give some guidance to this Committee on the way forward. So, is it in order that we should continue to further impunity on this matter by allowing such a Statement to be read on the Floor of the House?

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, before you respond, let us get the point of order from Sen. (Dr.) Machage.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. If you listened to Sen. Wako carefully, the gist of the words he said, in my interpretation, is that the Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale led Committee is refusing to take up its mandate and act accordingly. Is he in order? If he is, then, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale must tell us whether he is compromised not to act.

I can see that quite a number of Senators have an interest in this matter. Let us give Sen. Njoroge an opportunity.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Ntutu wants to say something.

We will also give him an opportunity to inform the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This matter has taken too long. I can remember that at one time I went to Maasai forest to investigate the Narok issue yet up to now we are still dilly-dallying. I know Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, and this is not a matter that will be in their hands for more than one month. He really needs to dispose of this because his

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is unfortunate that the Senate Minority Leader can utter such words. Any time that I am out of this House, I normally do so with permission from the Speaker. At the same time, I happen to be a Senator with nominees that represent me. Therefore, whether I am here or not, the Nakuru vote is always here.

Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is important to mention that the County Government of Narok has moved to court to get orders to stop the Senate from pursuing this issue. Good enough and unfortunately for them, they were denied the orders until Monday 12th October, 2015 when the inter parties hearing will be before a High Court judge. So, this is how tricky or slippery the County Government of Narok is. It is good for the House to be informed on this.

That is very good information to the House.

Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, clear the issues raised before I dispose. The matter is very clear.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am glad that you have allowed this ventilation. Our decision to have this Statement read was because in that Committee, we are all men and women of this country. What happens in this country - including the remarks by Sen. Njoroge, that why should one little thing drag in this Senate almost for a year? You, Sen. Njoroge and I sit in the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. That, Sen. (Dr.) Machage fears the possibility of compromise; is real. The attempt to go to court has been communicated to me by the people of Narok County telling me that I must unlock this problem. Therefore, we decided that we make this move - for your information, Sen. Madzayo, the County Governments Act gave us an entry point. It recognizes the county secretary as the official recipient of any communication and official correspondence on behalf of the county. So, if he is the official, it therefore, means when Mr. Lenku Seki signed this Statement, he was merely doing so because he was transmitting to the Senate the position of the county government. Since we know that this matter will not end today, we wanted to enjoin the whole House in interpreting, not just the behaviour, but the content of this Statement. When I will read this whole Statement, you will discover that besides him refusing to come before us and trying to block Senate by going to court, he has also deliberately refused to answer the Statement and he has put that in writing. If you allow me, you will see that then you will make a global decision that will guide my Committee on how to deal with the governor. I want the House to be involved because---

If you allow me Sen. Musila, this is because it is on a sensitive issue where you can hear in the background, the word “possibility” of people getting compromised. If you do not put everything on the table, people will say that either you are rushing because Sen. Ntutu, who happens not to be a poor man, is pushing you or you are dragging your feet because Gov. Tunai

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

What is your point of order, Sen. G.G. Kariuki? I want to rule on this matter.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am now getting concerned that the matter is getting deeper than what we expected. Did Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale know that somebody somewhere will go to court to try to stop the Senate from discussing issues of Narok? When I became a Member of the Committee, I attended three meetings and the Narok issue was almost coming to an end but I do not know what happened immediately after that. The issue of people being accused of having been compromised cannot be taken easily. I think something has happened somewhere. The reason why the governor did not come to the meeting is because he was going to sabotage his stand on matters affecting the County of Narok. Perhaps, his lawyers advised him to the contrary. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this matter should be opened again for debate. Otherwise, we will be ashamed as a Senate for dealing with a matter like the Narok issue for such a long time without a resolution. I have a lot of faith in Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale in terms of dealing with committee Members but that faith will be eroded. Let us start asking ourselves whether we will operate as though the public does not know what we are doing. The people of Narok are as intelligent as Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale’s people, my people and the people of Kajiado. Let us be honest today and say that this matter is of grave concern. We need to sort out this matter, otherwise if we wait, we will hear that someone has died in Narok. All these things will follow if a situation like this one takes a lot of time. We can expect bad things to happen. The governor for Narok knew what he was doing. The people who were concerned about his activities in Narok are very much aware of what the governor is doing as well. As far as I am concerned, we left this matter to the Auditor-General and he was to clarify certain issues. I am sure even if I was not in the next meeting, issues were clarified. From there, what have we been doing because it cannot be solved by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? It can only be solved by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget which was to report to Senate and say exactly what happened. As far as I am concerned, that report has been avoided. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, time has come for this matter to be given priority.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Thank you for allowing me. The Senator for Laikipia has raised observations remotely suggesting the possibility of compromise. I want to stand before this House and the public to confirm to the country that as far as the interrogation of the Statement by Sen. Ntutu is concerned, my Committee has not been approached at all, not individually or collectively. The reason I am pushing that you allow us to do something today and not just adjourn, is because in the answer, the governor has refused to answer and said that all he would have to say was concluded by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. He said that this Committee filed a report on 30th April, 2015.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Senators, please, consult in low tones.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, that is why I was speaking loudly so that they hear my voice in whatever they are consulting. Particularly, when the Leader of Minority, Sen. Wetangula and the tycoon from Nakuru are discussing and our gracious lady from Kakamega is there looking at me and talking. Please look at me but also listen to what I am saying. I agree with you on the issue of particulars of qualifications. I have also said that religious communities and the big NGOs and professional counselors operating in that area should find a place because they have a role to play in this matter. For example, for counselors, in Clause 12 (c) 1 (f) , one of the functions of the committee is to collaborate with the council in the establishment of counseling centres and support group centres. The role of the counseling centres is very important in this matter, in prevention, control and also in the treatment of those who have it, so that they are acceptable and know that this disease is just like any other and that while having it, they can realize their potential and make use of the talents that God gave them. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is also not very clear to me that the actual doctors who are in this field are somewhere here because this committee may very well end up being a committee but with no real doctor. For example, when you say that “somebody who knows matters relating to health”, health is too broad.

We want people who are experts in this very field just as I would expect, for example, if it was cancer control, I would not just use the broad word of somebody who knows something about health. I would say somebody who knows about cancer causes and treatment. Therefore, may be, when you are particularizing his qualifications, just make sure that there is somebody

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Your time is up but Sen. Elachi says she can give you two minutes from her time.

When Sen. Ntutu sought a Statement; he was seeking it from the Chairman. So, when you come and read a Statement from the county secretary or even the governor, that will not still be holding, because this House will be expecting a Statement from the Chair. If you want to own up now and tell us that as Committee

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

How do you again challenge the ruling? You cannot do that.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir. I want to thank you for that clarity in your directive. I was itching that we must do something on this Floor, like we have done today, lest somebody thinks he could stop me. I am alive to the fact that the Constitution, in Article125, gives me the powers of the High Court in summoning anybody to come before the Committee. But because some people are playing the merry-go-round, I wanted them while watching live, to know that if you allow me to say it in Kiswahili so, that the good Maasai people can hear - it is not that they do not hear English - wajue kwamba sasa gari limeondoka kutoka stesheni na kwamba yeyote yule ambaye atalala, kukaa ama kusimama kwenye reli, tutapita na yeye. Ni lazima wizi ukiwapo kule Narok, walipe pesa ambazo wameibia wanainchi. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Concerning this question which has taken about three months, we have enough evidence to prove that the money was not banked. According to Annexture 32 of the Narok Petition, which was signed by one Chief Executive Officer of Mara Conservancy, Brian Heath, he has admitted in writing that the money was not deposited into their account. The Auditor-General also confirms in his report that the money was not a deposited into their account. What else does the Committee need? I raised these issues with the Committee on the issues that were not addressed.

Sen. Ntutu, we referred the matter back to the Committee. If you will appear before the Committee and tell them what you are saying now, I think that would be the right procedure, not in the House now. Next Order!

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

The last speaker was Sen. Chelule and she is not in the House. So, those who did not contribute now have a chance to contribute to this Bill. Who is No. 42?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill because of the importance that I attach to this matter. Indeed, this is national problem. As you will recall, this is not the first time that we have the opportunity to discus about matters concerning HIV/ADS which has become a major problem for many years in this country. Many lives have been lost, and we have not seen the end to this scourge despite the efforts that we have been making. As of now, the matter has been basically at the national level and we have not done much at the county level to appear to be fighting this scourge which is a national disaster. That is why I stand to strongly support this Bill. Now that the health function is devolved to the county level, the county AIDS control committees should be established so that counties can play their role. This is what is covered under Part 2A, of the Bill; that county AIDS control committees be established, funded and facilitated, so that they can play their role in this matter. While still on this, we are lamenting about lack of performance in the health sector by county governments. We have seen, for example, in some hospitals, my county included, cases where governors have gone ahead and erected very huge gates at health institutions to hoodwink the public that there is something going on inside. A huge gate costing Kshs7 million is erected at a health facility and there is no fence. But when you go inside these hospitals, there are no drugs. You wonder whether the priority is to do a gate and you do not supply drugs to the health institution. This is not a joke, but what is happening.

Unless we do something serious, as the Senate, to ensure that the county governments take health matters seriously, we are doomed to fail the public in service delivery, more so, when we are talking about HIV/AIDS, which as I said earlier has become such a huge problem which,

admittedly, even the national government has failed to control. We have even been involved in seeking help from outside like the Global Fund and every time the funds are withheld because of accountability reasons in the national Government.

So, I fear that unless we, as the Senate, put our foot down, people in the counties are going to continue suffering. Therefore, I think this Bill is timely. I congratulate Sen. (Dr.) Machage for bringing this matter so that county governments wake up to the issue of HIV/AIDS. We have already seen patients in counties suffering from simple diseases such as malaria. The other day, children in Busia County were given a wrong injection. Therefore, health matters in county governments must be put very clearly so that we ensure that this Government delivers.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Therefore, there is need for nutritional food to be equally provided to HIV/AIDS patients so that they eat food with vitamins – I understand omena is very good for that matter - and energy so that when the drugs are taken, they are useful to their bodies. It is only in this and other poor countries where people living with HIV/AIDS are known because they have no access to drugs and they do not have nutritious food to keep them healthy. In developing countries, you cannot recognise an HIV/AIDS patient, because they are looked after and eat very well and take the drugs regularly. Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir, I am advocating that the committees should not only be formed, but they should also be given resources. Again, I have said “resources” because the committees that were formed by the national Government in districts have failed because they were not given resources. So, these committees must be given resources and their recommendations must be implemented effectively. One of the recommendations I am sure must be the provision of drugs, testing and – though it may sound very far-fetched – the provision of food for those who are unable to be given food by the county governments. County governments have money for disasters, but instead of using that money on the people, governors use it for campaigns. They use it to transport people to rallies and carry red carpets and toilets for governors. So, it is high time that we took the necessary action to ensure that county governments do the right thing and give priority to health matters. There is no other priority that is more important than looking after our people as far as health matters are concerned. I support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I congratulate the distinguished Senator for Migori for bringing this Bill. I support the Bill for reasons that health is a devolved function. Being a devolved function, we must – as the Senate that defends and protects counties and their governments – ensure that devolved functions are properly and truly devolved to counties to help the people of this country. HIV/AIDS has been a cash cow and you know that there have been many questionable transactions and audit queries surrounding the management of HIV/AIDS funds, largely brought in by donors. Many donors, like the distinguished Senator for Kitui has said, have stopped funding HIV/AIDS activities because of the opaque manner in which it has been run, to the

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the Senate Minority Leader for the kind words that he has for my county. However, it is unfortunate to judge a county by the way the roadside looks like. It could be quite different from what is happening in there. I believe that when you have a governor who says that he is going to clean a town and the kind of dirt that he is referring to are human beings, I do not believe that is cleaning. Therefore, I would like the Senate Minority Leader to withdraw. He has a lot of

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Mungai, you are completely out of order! I also think that the Governor has made the town to be clean. You should appreciate him. We do not need people running everywhere in the town. If they have been put in the rightful areas, we should commend him. Moreover, you have never brought a petition or sought a statement against him, maybe everything is well. What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. If you listened carefully – which I believe you did – to the point of information by Sen. Mungai, you must have heard him say that the Governor for Nakuru does not clean dirt but people. Would I, therefore, be in order to request that Sen. Mungai elucidates or substantiates that very serious allegation that is worrying, abhorring and traumatic to some of our thinking?

To save on time, even if Sen. Mungai said “cleaning people,” I think he meant that the governor has cleaned or removed people along the roads, and, to an extent of, maybe, making them clean.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. There is a matter of procedure here. The distinguished Senator stood to inform the distinguished Senator for Bungoma. Instead of informing him, he asked him to withdraw. Is he in order?

He is not in order. That is why I ruled him out of order. The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, you can take judicial notice of the fact that the distinguished Senator for Nakuru County is hardly in this House. Therefore, probably, procedure eludes him.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is unfortunate that the Senate Minority Leader can utter such words. Any time that I am out of this House, I normally do so with permission from the Speaker. At the same time, I happen to be a Senator with nominees that represent me. Therefore, whether I am here or not, the Nakuru vote is always here.

Go on, Sen. Wetangula.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula, I would not like to cut you short. However, I know that you still have time but I can see that some other Senators also want to contribute. Could you be generous and use the time allocated to you? The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am about to finish. I am on my last two minutes.

Okay. The Senate Minority Leader (

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we need to have a doctrine called budget tracking. When you give money to a project, you must follow it as it is spent along the way so that, two years later, we do not say that money that was sent to Laikipia was stolen and the thief has moved out of the country and you cannot find him. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a wonderful Bill. It is a furtherance of our responsibility as protectors of devolution to send devolution down to the counties. I urge my colleagues to support it. I also urge its sponsor to take into account, particularly, the composition of the board that I have pointed out, so that we have a board of professionals who can work. With those remarks, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to talk on this very important amendment Bill. The Bill seeks to amend the HIV and AIDS Prevention and Control Act. As I stand here, I am very happy that the main Act was moved in

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Senators, please, consult in low tones.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, that is why I was speaking loudly so that they hear my voice in whatever they are consulting. Particularly, when the Leader of Minority, Sen. Wetangula and the tycoon from Nakuru are discussing and our gracious lady from Kakamega is there looking at me and talking. Please look at me but also listen to what I am saying. I agree with you on the issue of particulars of qualifications. I have also said that religious communities and the big NGOs and professional counselors operating in that area should find a place because they have a role to play in this matter. For example, for counselors, in Clause 12 (c) 1 (f) , one of the functions of the committee is to collaborate with the council in the establishment of counseling centres and support group centres. The role of the counseling centres is very important in this matter, in prevention, control and also in the treatment of those who have it, so that they are acceptable and know that this disease is just like any other and that while having it, they can realize their potential and make use of the talents that God gave them. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is also not very clear to me that the actual doctors who are in this field are somewhere here because this committee may very well end up being a committee but with no real doctor. For example, when you say that “somebody who knows matters relating to health”, health is too broad.

We want people who are experts in this very field just as I would expect, for example, if it was cancer control, I would not just use the broad word of somebody who knows something about health. I would say somebody who knows about cancer causes and treatment. Therefore, may be, when you are particularizing his qualifications, just make sure that there is somebody

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Your time is up but Sen. Elachi says she can give you two minutes from her time.

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b) Shall collaborate with the Council. So, you are collaborating with the Council but you are under the direction and control of the governor. What about if there are conflicting directions either from the governor or the Council, how will the committee operate? Two, on the issue of: If those who belong to that Committee are judged bankrupt, have committed an offence involving fraud and dishonesty--. Okay, fraud and dishonesty must be there but I would like a phraseology that talks about, “has committed an offence which is an offence under this Act.” This is because the offences under the Act are more relevant than these other offences. Whereas that general one should be there, there should be a phase that says that if you have committed an offence under this Act; then it cannot be said that you are committed to the prevention and control of HIV/AIDS. The offences under this Act deal with discriminatory acts towards the people with HIV/AIDS in schools, at the work place, in travel, in health institutions and many other places. With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank the Senator for Migori County for bringing this Bill which is long overdue. We used to have the Constituency HIV/AIDS Board. However, we are now introducing the county committee. Two weeks ago, a young man, a seven year old from Kenya, who has HIV/AIDS, gave a story in New York that moved us. His story was about stigmatization of children who are HIV/AIDS positive in schools. When we devolved health facilities, we did not set up structures to cater for HIV/AIDS counselors and community workers. We need these people to visit homes and assure our people infected with HIV/AIDS that they can live positively and normal life. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Clause 12 says the functions will be to initiate, undertake and participate in the collection, production and dissemination of data that is useful in the prevention and control of HIV/AIDS within the country. While we are collecting and

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the importance of the topic of HIV/AIDS in Kenya cannot be underestimated, with a prevalence rate of around 5.8 per cent at this time. Knowing that the range is wide, in some areas of this country, the prevalence rate is as high as 18 per cent, although we have some areas with as low as 1 per cent. This is something that we must focus our minds and get to the gist of how to tackle it. While this has reduced from a previous starting prevalence rate of about 19 per cent in the early 1980s to where we are now, the gains can be lost with the masking of the whole epidemic with the advent of Antiretroviral (ARVs) drugs. May I appreciate the contributions of Members of this House who have given more insight and information on what should be incorporated in making the Bill even better. I will pray that Members take the opportunity to also guide on the amendments by submitting their thoughts on what should be amended. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale did suggest that it is important to incorporate in this Bill, the control and management of malaria and tuberculosis. Let us also know that HIV/AIDS pandemic was at one time declared a national disaster. Maybe, putting this together may dilute the magnitude and importance of this situation. What I would pick from him is that there is need also to amend the laws that manage malaria and tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is an opportunist infection that usually follows HIV/AIDS and is covered very well in this Bill. I also thank Sen. Chelule for her contribution. Sen. (Prof.) Lesan appreciated the contributions of Prof. Koech and Prof. Obel on the issue. This was an attempt by Kenyans to come up with medication to this scourge. He, however, misunderstood what I said about the relevance and importance of opportunistic quacks who came up with herbs and other concoctions trying to steal from the Kenyans in the name of treatment of HIV/AIDS. I appreciate the contributions of these two people. Prof. Obel’s attempt to use Pearl Omega in the treatment of HIV/AIDS cannot be underestimated. He was my teacher. Sen. Musila has been very concerned with the allocation of resources being diverted to other uses including; buying toilets for governors, instead of putting this money to proper use, including control and management of HIV/AIDS. I appreciate his concern and his warning to these people that they must use money appropriately. Sen. Wetangula has put much of his concern on the qualifications of the people that are to be appointed into the committee. I considered this and also the regional distribution of intelligent learned people in this country. If I make the conditions too stringent, then some regions may lack members in this committee. However, I will consider strengthening the qualifications of members of this committee. Sen.Wako has given a big insight on the law that manages the Act. He has thought on expansion of the committee. He suggested an inclusion of religious people in the committee. His contribution is very relevant. I will consider all the matters he has raised. I cannot forget to thank Sen. Elachi for her concern on use of data collection. Indeed, this data will not only be kept, but has to be reported back quarterly so that it can be assessed to know the trends of HIV/AIDS infection and management so that we can intervene appropriately. She is concerned about the education, knowledge, attitude and practice of our youth. She is worried that youths use condoms for prevention of pregnancy rather than HIV/AIDS. Indeed she thinks that, in Kenya, indulgence in sex begin at 10 years. Let me tell her that the youngest age recorded for pregnancy in Kenya is 9 years. So, you can imagine when sexual indulgence begins.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

I defer the division to an appropriate date when we will have the numbers in the House.

Next order!

Second Reading

The Bill is deferred to next week. Second Reading

This Bill is deferred to tomorrow. Second Reading

This Bill is also deferred to tomorrow.

October 7th, 2015 SENATE DEBATES

This Bill is also deferred.