Thursday, 12th February 2026

Serjeant-at-Arms, ring the Quorum Bell.

Hon. Members, where are our Whips today? Hon. Kitany, can you be one of the Whips today?

Go ahead. Do we have quorum now?

Yes.

Hon. Members, we now have quorum to transact business.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. On behalf of the Leader of the Majority Party, I beg to lay the following papers on the Table of the House—

It is not Horo Horo, it is Horohoro. You do not know the geography of Kenya.

Bagamoyo-Horohoro-Lunga Lunga- Malindi Road Project Phase 1

– Kenya National Highways Authority.

Well done, Hon. Murugara. That was a long one. Next Order.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to give notices of the following Motions:

THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Public Petitions Committee on its consideration of Public Petition No. 11 of 2022 regarding pollution Athi River, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 11th April 2024.

TikTok in Kenya, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 25th September

Thank you. Before the next Order, allow me to acknowledge the following schools:

In the Speaker’s Gallery: Magomano Girls Secondary School from Kinangop, Nyandarua. Hon. Members, acknowledge the presence of your children.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is a great pleasure for me to warmly welcome the students from my Constituency, Al-Muhajirun School. You are most welcome by Members of Parliament. Al-Muhajirun is a group of schools known as Ansaaru Sunna, which is one of the most successful integrated community schools that have uplifted children from our neighbourhood. They do very well in the exams.

I also want to salute the founder, Sheikh Abdulrazak Jir, a very prominent educationist. I want to tell the students that education is power. I am only here because of education. So, work hard and perform very well. The sky is the limit.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Order! Order! You clap again and you will be evacuated from that Gallery. And I cannot blame those children. It is the Serjeant-at-Arms Office that has not told the visiting school children how to behave in Parliament. So, Serjeant-at-Arms, you are called to order. Those children do not know how they should behave here. And for Members of Parliament, when you bring students to the Gallery, also remind them about Parliament’s etiquette.

Hon. Kwenya Thuku.

Thank you, Speaker. Indeed, I want to inform you that I had a meeting with my students who are visiting the precincts of Parliament, and I ably briefed them as to what they are supposed to do in the Chambers. I can assure you that you are not going to hear that clapping or ululation.

I take this opportunity to welcome Magomano Girls Secondary School to the precincts of Parliament and within the Chambers. Just to bring to your attention, Kinangop is the home of the first Speaker of the National Assembly. In fact, Sir Humphrey Slade lived in a place called Karima, where Karima Girls is located. Today we also have Magomano Girls Secondary School. These are two premier schools in my Constituency.

I want to assure you that you are ably represented in the House. You can dream of coming to Parliament anytime, either as a staff member or as a Member of Parliament. Therefore, I welcome the school from Kinangop and any other school visiting to enjoy the ambience of Parliament.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you. On my behalf and on behalf of the House, we welcome the students, their teachers and those accompanying them to the House of Parliament. Thank you.

Hon. Abdi Ali Abdi, Member for Ijara. Hon. Abdi, is this the same issue you asked the Cabinet Secretary during the kamukunji?

Yes, but this is more of a comprehensive Statement.

So, do you want to prosecute it, or does it die there?

I just want it to be formal so that at least it is comprehensive.

Go ahead. Thank you.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provision of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security regarding the tragic killing of a chief and a primary school teacher in Hulugho Sub-County, Ijara Constituency, Garissa County.

On 26th January 2026, the Boma Location Senior Chief, Mr Abdifatah Ghani Mohamud, and Mr Stephen Musili Vundi, a teacher at Hulugho Primary School, were shot dead in separate attacks at their respective homes by suspected Al-Shabaab militants. The late chief represented the face of the national Government administration at the grassroots level, while the late teacher was dedicated to shaping the future of our children through education.

The brutal murder of the two unarmed civilians who were only serving the people of Hulugho constitutes not only an attack on innocent individuals but is also a direct assault on the authority of the State, public service delivery, and the fundamental right to live and work in peace. This tragic incident underscores the persistent security vulnerability in borders and frontier sub-counties, which remain underserved in terms of security infrastructure, intelligence coverage, and rapid response capabilities.

It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security on the following.

Chairman, Hon. Tongoyo, how soon can you bring the response? Actually, this issue was raised before the Cabinet Secretary.

Yes, it was.

And he substantially spoke about it.

Yes.

So, how much time do you need?

For the purposes of tabling the record in the House and given the gravity of the matter, maybe we can do it on Thursday, next week.

Thursday, next week?

Yes.

Thank you.

I want to send my condolences to the families of our fallen officers, the teacher and the chief.

Thank you. You do that for all of us. Hon. Charles Onchoke.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence, and Foreign Relations regarding the reported coercion of two Kenyan citizens into military service in the Russian Federation.

On diverse dates in September 2025, Mr Clinton Nyapara Mogesa, holder of passport number BK154412, and Mr Justus Mayienda Ombati, of passport number AK0516222, both from Bonchari, travelled to Russia separately in pursuit of employment opportunities as security guards through the engagement of recruitment agencies. Upon arrival, however, they were allegedly coerced into signing contracts to serve in the Russian military despite having no prior military training or experience. The two are said to have undergone a brief conscription training before being deployed to the front lines of the ongoing Ukraine-Russia conflict.

It is reported that in November 2025, Mr Ombati sustained severe injuries while at war. Consequently, he was admitted at the D.D. Pletnev City Clinical Hospital intensive care unit in Moscow. The family believes that he is still at the said facility to date. On 31st January 2026, Mr Nyapara’s family learnt, through social media, that their son had perished in combat. To date, the family has not received any formal communication about the circumstances facing their kin. This incident raises grave concerns about the safety and welfare of Kenyans seeking legitimate opportunities abroad, as well as the effectiveness of diplomatic interventions in such situations.

It is against this background that I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations on the following:

Hon. Milemba, do you want to be a joyrider?

Yes.

Go ahead.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I attended the meeting of the Departmental Committee on Labour yesterday. The matters of people going to Russia and Ukraine, being recruited in their army and then afterwards dying are very rampant. The isolated case or cases that have been raised by the Member are not the only ones. I kindly request that we invite the relevant Cabinet Secretary so that this matter may be dealt with. This is becoming a national issue; it is all over the country.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Julius ole Sunkuli, do you want to joyride on that Statement?

Yes, Hon. Speaker. I hope The Hansard reports capture all that we say. Yesterday, there was a technical hitch in the parliamentary live proceedings on YouTube because they ended at 11.59 a.m. All we said after that time is not on record. When we spoke to the Cabinet Secretary today, a technical hitch occurred during my speech and Hon. Tongoyo’s speech. A lot of information was lost. When we come to defend Kenyans, the Hansard office becomes faithful to what we are doing here.

Clerk-at-the-Table, did you hear that? The Hansard should be a faithful and factual report of the transactions that go on in the House.

Hon. Speaker, following concerns raised by several families in Transmara and other parts of Kenya, there is a lot of information on Kenyans who are allegedly recruited and taken to...

Hon. Sunkuli, you cannot joyride by pulling out a written statement.

I am not reading a statement, but it is only the introduction. Following concerns raised by several families in Transmara and other parts of Kenya, there is a lot of information on Kenyans who are allegedly recruited and taken to the Russian Federation under false pretences. Quite a number of people from my constituency namely Caleb Lebunge Koringo, Nixon Kebenei, Kelvin Lemashon, Billy Ledama, Tereswa ole Kaparo, Ledama Lopez, Danson M Keiwa, Benson and David Kibet were taken to Russia under false pretence.

Today, the Cabinet Secretary said that they are investigating those who recruited these people. These ones were recruited by Forbes Global Agencies located at Embassy House. We have the telephone numbers of the fellows who recruited these people. They were taken to Athi River Town for a very casual military training and told to open accounts which they have no access to. Currently, they do not communicate with their families. Some of them have little and inconsistent communication.

Can we get a Statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Administration on how we will ensure the safety of our people when they are recruited by these agencies to go to other countries? This is a very important issue. I thank my friend, Hon. Charles Onchoke, for bringing this Statement.

Thank you. Hon. Tongoyo, do you want to contribute on the same issue?

Yes, Hon. Speaker.

There are too many joyriders.

I do not want to belabour the point. According to what Hon. Sunkuli has said, about seven people from one single constituency or sub-county being recruited is worrying.

He said they are 12.

Hon. Speaker, that tells you the number could be extremely big which is worrying. As we wait for the Cabinet Secretary to respond to the Statement, Hon. Sunkuli can take the information to the Directorate of Criminal Investigations (DCI) because it can help during this time of investigation.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Raso.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Sunkuli, what is your point of order?

Since I have raised the matter in the House, I do not think it is wise for me to go to the DCI. Can I table this document so that the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Security can take it from there?

Order, Hon. Sunkuli. You are a joyrider. You have no document to table.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. From the foregoing matter raised by the Member for Bonchari, when Kenyans are recruited to fight in foreign wars, they are not soldiers but mercenaries. The law about them is very clear. However, the division we must make between the two is if there are Kenyan students who are studying in Russia and are conscripted to fight the Russian war, then that is illegal and against the international law.

Hon. Raso, you are a military man. A country cannot conscript anybody who is not its national. You can only do it to your nationals.

Hon. Speaker, this is an issue that the Member for Bonchari has raised. If some of those individuals in Russia are studying, then for them to be conscripted is illegal. At the same time, it is criminal for Kenyan agents to recruit Kenyans to fight in foreign wars. Action must be taken without delay. Kenyans are looking for greener pastures, but not through fighting foreign wars that they are not likely to survive.

Hon. Ichung’wah, Leader of the Majority Party, I know Hon. Karemba is distracting you and he should stop. If you heard what Hon. Sunkuli said, he said that he knows the physical address of the recruiting agent, telephone number and the name of the individual who is recruiting unsuspecting young Kenyans. Most likely, he is making a fortune out of it and taking them as mercenaries to the Russia-Ukraine front line. This is not a matter I will leave to the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations. I will pass the ball to you. Between now and the time we get a response, you should engage the DCI and the National Intelligence Service (NIS) . Hon. Sunkuli is a person of interest to the extent that he has the details he has talked about so that you can assist in apprehending the criminals who are taking advantage of the unemployment situation in the country.

I also have some letters from Hon. Raphael Wanjala and a few other Members whose constituents have been on that frontline. I have taken the extra step of talking to Ambassador Mathuki in Moscow and personally sent him to go and see the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Sergey Lavrov, whom I know as a friend because we served together as foreign ministers. Mr Lavrov said that the Russian Government is not involved in those recruitments, and anybody who dies on the frontline is either thrown in the rivers or buried in mass graves.

This is a very serious matter, and I encourage you as the Leader of the Majority Party in the House to take it up so that we can assist Kenyans in distress. Maybe you can come back to the House by Thursday, but get the details from Hon. Sunkuli.

Hon. Speaker, the diaspora desk at the Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora Affairs has a lot of information. I saw on the media two ladies whose husbands are missing out there. One came back miraculously and had a horrifying story to tell. It is good to advise parents or family members who have their children out there to come out and register so that we know the extent of the problem because it is serious. The one who came back went mad and started shouting everywhere and had to be taken to the hospital. Finally, he was assisted by the embassy.

There is a lot of information going around, and there is a lady who said she knows the agent and called them by name. Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Jayne. Hon. Ichung’wah, maybe what you should also do is cause the Government communication authority to send out a clear message to Kenyans that there are no jobs in Russia for Kenyans to go and perform, and that those who are being lured for jobs in Russia are going to a war zone, and it is advised not to do so.

Hon. Onchoke, your request and that of all the joyriders are in the hands of the Leader of the Majority Party who will be responding by Thursday next week.

Hon. John Kaguchia, Member for Mukurweini.

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Orders 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure regarding the status of construction of the Gikondi-Thaara Road and the Mwireri-Mutwewathi Road in Mukurweini Constituency.

The award of the two projects to contractors created legitimate expectation among residents that construction works would be undertaken within the stipulated timelines and to the required standards. However, progress on both roads has been slow, irregular and unclear. Several sections have stalled, while sections where works had commenced have deteriorated due to incomplete works. This has caused significant inconvenience to residents and raised serious concerns regarding contractor performance, payment processes, and the adequacy of projects supervision and oversight.

It is against this background that I request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure on the following:

Thank you. Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure or any Member from the Committee. Leader of the Majority Party, inform them to bring a response in two weeks.

Hon. Speaker, I will do that.

Thank you. Leader of the Majority Party, your Thursday Statement. Do you have any today?

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I was consulting with Hon. Lochakapong, who is sympathising that many other Chairpersons are not in the House. I must commend Hon. Tongoyo and his Vice-Chairperson, because they are always in the House at 2.30 p.m. to make sure that they respond to Questions and Statements.

Correct.

The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure should also be aware that many of the Questions that come from Members pertain either to security, transport, health or water. Hon. Kangogo Bowen is also here at 2.30 p.m. I encourage the other Chairpersons to be present.

Hon. Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 44 (2) (a) to make a Statement on behalf of the House Business Committee which met in its first meeting this Tuesday, February 10th, to prioritise business for consideration during the week.

Allow me to once again officially welcome Members back from the long recess and wish all of them a very successful Fifth Session, which will be our penultimate Session of the Term of the 13th Parliament. Therefore, as the Session commences, we expect a significant number of legislative proposals, Bills, reports, and statutory instruments that will most certainly require our very keen attention. In this regard, the collective effort of every Member and every Committee remains critical for the realisation of the constitutional mandate that the National Assembly has been bestowed on by the people of Kenya.

Having said that, I wish to draw to the attention of the Members that the Budget Policy Statement (BPS) and the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy (MTDS) and accompanying documents for the Financial Year 2026/27 were submitted to the House yesterday afternoon. I encourage Committees, especially the Departmental Committees, to prioritise its consideration, noting the very strict statutory timeline provided for in law. Just to remind them, as I said yesterday, we have only 14 days beginning yesterday afternoon, to consider the BPS and MTDS and table a report to the House within the 14 days.

With regards to business scheduled for next week, the House is expected to consider the following Bills at various stages:

Committee of the Whole House on the Judges Retirement Benefits Bill, 2025. This Bill is for judges’ pension. We finished its Second Reading at the tail end of the last Session. Second Reading of the following Bills, should some of them not be concluded today—

Thank you, Leader of the Majority Party. Members, allow me to acknowledge, in the Speaker’s Gallery this afternoon, Maranda High School from Bondo, Siaya County.

Hon. Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to welcome the students and teachers from Maranda High School to Parliament. Maranda High School is one of our best; actually, one of our top schools in the county. We really support their visit to Parliament. Maranda High School is an outstanding school that has produced many scholars and professionals, including the late Right Hon. Raila Amolo Odinga. As the students come here, we want to tell them that this is their House. They should aim to be here and beyond.

Thank you.

Hon. Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Let me also join my colleague, Hon. Atandi in welcoming the students from Maranda High School to this august House. I do so on two accounts. First, my second born went through Maranda High School. I am a very proud father of the boy. Second, we have had a very good working relationship between Funyula National Government-Constituencies Development Fund (NG- CDF) and Maranda High School. As we speak, NG-CDF Funyula is offering 100 per cent sponsorship of about 15 boys at Maranda High School. Luckily enough, all those we have

sponsored since I became a Member of Parliament have attained either A- (Minus), B+ (Plus), or A plain. They always make me very proud and we associate very well. We wish them well and good speed.

Thank you.

Hon. Oron.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for this opportunity to also add my voice in welcoming Maranda High School. I am an alumnus of Maranda High School. That is where I started from. Maranda High School students, dream on. This is where you should be aiming at.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Next Order.

Hon. Members, I will put the question.

Next Order. First Readings

Next Order.

Chairman, Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, that is your Motion.

Yes. Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion:

THAT, taking into consideration the findings of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning in its report on the approval hearing of a nominee for appointment as the Director-General of the Financial Reporting Centre, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 11th February 2026, and pursuant to the provisions of Section 25 of the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Act (POCAMLA) (Cap 59A) and Sections 3 and 8 of the Public Appointments (Parliamentary Approval) Act (Cap.7F) , this House approves the appointment of Mr Naphtaly Kipchirchir Rono as the Director- General of the Financial Reporting Centre. Allow me to give you a little background on the Financial Reporting Centre (FRC) . I wish to begin by giving a brief background on where it all started. In 1989, the Group of Seven (G7) countries most wealthy nations established an international body referred to as Financial Action Task Force (FATF) . This body currently has a membership of 40 countries, jurisdictions and covers nearly every country in the world through a network of regional bodies. The sole role of the intergovernmental body is to set international standards for Anti- Money Laundering (AML) , countering the financing of terrorism, and countering proliferation financing; that is preventing money from going toward nuclear and chemical weapons.

Kenya is one of the founding members of the Eastern and Southern Africa Anti-Money Laundering Group (ESAAMLG) ; a Financial Action Task Force-style regional body mandated to fight money laundering, terrorism financing and proliferation of funds in the region. To achieve this mandate, FATF member countries agreed on a specific set of 40 recommendations as rules of the game for any modern economy. This included, one, Know Your Customer (KYC) , where banks must verify who you are. Two, beneficial ownership where countries must know who actually owns a company, not just who is in the paperwork. This is to stop shell companies. Three, criminalisation, where countries must punish money laundering, terrorism and financing specific crimes with serious jail time. Lastly, international cooperation where governments must share information with each other to catch cross-border criminals.

To evaluate compliance and check the status of implementation of the 40 recommendations, countries are evaluated by the FATF through the process called Mutual Evaluation. This is basically a massive peer review audit where experts from other countries fly in to check two things in particular. One, technical compliance. Do you have the right laws written in your books? Two, effectiveness. Are those laws actually working? For example, you have a law against money laundering, but have you actually convicted anyone in the last five years? This peer review conducted by FATF may result in the listing of a country. There are two categories of listing. The first one is the grey list, which is called the ‘watch list’. Here, the countries or jurisdictions are under monitoring. This means that countries have strategic deficiencies but have officially promised to fix them. They are working with FATF on an action plan. In this category, international banks may be slower to process your wires and foreign investment might dip, because you are seen as a risky neighbourhood.

The second category is the black list or the no-go zone. These are high-risk jurisdictions subjected to a call for action. These are countries that are either uncooperative or have such massive failures that they pose a threat to the entire world. In such cases, FATF tells the world to apply countermeasures, to plainly stop doing business in such countries, or to be extremely careful because that money is likely to be dirty. As of early 2026, these countries include Iran, North Korea and Myanmar.

Pursuant to Standing Orders 45(1) and 77(1), the Speaker of the National Assembly referred the nomination of Mr Naftali Kipchirchir Rono to the position of Director-General of the FRC to the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning to conduct approval hearing and table a report to the House within the stipulated period. Subsequently, my Committee conducted the approval hearing on Monday, 2nd February 2026 and these were the findings on the nominee.

The nominee has over 25 years of experience in intersection of law, security, governance and regulation, shaping keys of legislation and policies. He held similar legal roles in the National Intelligence Service (NIS), including serving as head of legal for over 10 years. He was therefore tasked with advising the Director-General on legal matters.

He holds a Master of Laws Degree in International Finance and Regulation from Strathmore University. He also holds a post- graduate Diploma in Law from the Kenya School of Law (KSL) and a Bachelor of Laws Degree from The University of Nairobi. It is also good to note that he was top of his class having scored a First-Class Honours.

His career has majorly been in the intelligence and law-enforcement field which has given him strong expertise in investigating financial crimes and coordinating multi-agencies which are central to the mandate of the Financial Reporting Centre. In addition, the nominee has legal and leadership roles built over time that will solidify his capacity in regulatory compliance and strategic management required to guide the Centre effectively.

The nominee meets the requirements of Chapter Six of the Constitution on Leadership and Integrity, having been issued with the relevant clearance certificates by the relevant statutory agencies such as Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC), Directorate of Criminal Investigation (DCI), Office of Director of Public Prosecution and Higher Education Loans Board (HELB).

The nominee demonstrated knowledge of topical administration and technical issues touching on financial reporting and has the requisite abilities, qualifications and experience to serve as Director-General of FRC. The nominee demonstrated a clear understanding of anti- money laundering space, proliferation financing and counter-terrorism through the many years of experience he has had with the NIS. He possesses the correct qualifications, including a Master’s Degree that is relevant to this job, a Diploma in Law from KSL and First-Class Honours degree from the University of Nairobi.

I am, therefore, very proud of this nominee for having done his master’s degree from the same university that I did mine, that is, Strathmore University. I request this honourable House to approve the nominee to be the Director-General of FRC.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Leader of the Majority Party would like to second. At the same time, Hon. Gichimu wanted to second.

Hon. Chairman, please move and decide on who is seconding your Motion.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, when the Leader of the Majority Party requests to second, you must first consult with the leadership. So, I had to consult. It is important to notify this House that the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and the Committee on Public Debt and Privatisation are moving across the country conducting public participation on Sessional Paper No. 2 of 2025 on the partial divestiture of Safaricom. That is why those Members are not present in the House this afternoon. So far, we have covered about 25 counties with only five to go. We are hoping that in the next few weeks or days, the Joint Committee will have a report to table in this House. That will reflect the views of Kenyans we will talk to in all the 30 counties that we are going to visit.

With those remarks, I beg to move and ask Hon. Gichimu, the great Member for Gichugu, to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As I second this Motion, let me make it clear that our Standing Orders give the Leader of the Majority Party priority, but when it comes to seconding of a Motion, leeway is given to the Mover to choose. That is why I am humbled and privileged to have been given this opportunity to second this Motion. I thank the Departmental Committee which is ably led by Hon. Kimani Kuria for work well done. Though he has said it all, I just need to add a few things in support of this Motion.

First of all, let me declare that the nominee, Mr Rono, was my classmate. There is no conflict of interest at all for me as I second and support this Motion. This is a person who has been well exposed to fit well in the position that he has been nominated to head as Director- General. For the better part of his professional life, he has worked with the National Intelligence Service. This position has given him very good exposure that he requires. One of the areas that his position will require is financial intelligence in collaboration with other authorities for the purposes of enforcement in terms of executing his mandate as required by the law. So, we expect that Mr Rono will take the Financial Reporting Centre to a higher level in terms of compliance with international bodies and all that is required for the performance of his work. I have no doubt that having known the nominee for four years at the university and also having followed his career very well as was elaborated by the Chairperson, this is a person of very high integrity who will discharge his duties as required by law and the Constitution. Hon. Temporary Speaker, without belabouring the point, and because other Members including the Leader of the Majority Party might now want to contribute, I beg to second. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, Hon. Gichimu.

Hon. Members, before I give a chance to the Leader of the Majority Party to debate, I would like to acknowledge our students seated in the Public Gallery from Molo Academy Boys, Molo Constituency, Nakuru County. Let us welcome them to the House. Leader of the Majority Party, would you like to welcome them or we let their Member of Parliament do so?

Let their Member of Parliament welcome them.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I take this opportunity to welcome students from the great school in Molo, Molo Academy. This is one of the best performing schools in Molo Constituency. Notably, the students are drawn across the country. We have students from Kisumu, Mombasa, Kilifi and other parts of the country. They come and study in Molo and do exemplary well. One of the reasons why this school is very successful is because it is in a very good location in Molo Town, with cultural diversity of people living together from across the country. This has really made the school to be great. I encourage all of us in this House to have many such schools in our constituencies so that we can grow leaders who think beyond their communities, families and tribes and can live as global citizens. I welcome them to observe the proceedings of the House.

Leader of the Majority Party, you may proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Allow me to also welcome students from Molo Academy. I am impressed by what their Member of Parliament, who is also an accomplished accountant and a very good Chairperson of our Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning has said.

I would like to tell the students from Molo Academy and their parents that they are represented in the House by the best. Their Member of Parliament is a two-term Member who is going for a third term. He will actually go for a long-term. It is rare to find a young leader like the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning who is very focused in his work and is able to deliver at a national stage as he does in leading this House on matters finance and even in consideration of a report like this that he tabled yesterday on consideration of Mr Rono to the Financial Reporting Centre (FRC). It is good that the students have listened to their Member of Parliament because tomorrow, they will be the ones sitting here after the long-term of Hon. Kimani Kuria, who is also doing very well as a constituency Member of Parliament. I commend Hon. Kimani Kuria as I welcome these children. As they have been told, together with other students in the Speaker’s Gallery, let them watch their leaders and learn from every good thing they do and say, but ignore those with bad manners who encourage them to be tied up to ethnic conclaves. I was impressed by what the Member for Molo said. He said that Molo Academy and many other schools in this country accommodate children from across the country without regard to where they were born and their ethnic backgrounds. I was rather embarrassed the other day when some lost character alluded that Alliance High School, a school I went to, is a local village school. Alliance High School has been a national high school that has tutored Kenyans from across the board. I am on record to have stated that I have never, as Member of Parliament for the last 13 to 14 years, invested a single coin of the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) of Kikuyu Constituency into the Alliance High School. This is because it serves Kenyans from across the board. It is the people of Kenya, through their taxes, that have been financing the construction and development programmes at the Alliance High School and many other national schools. We approve the expenditures here in the House. It is, therefore, sad that a person who purports to be a leader of nobody imagines that he can belittle our great school and many other schools like the Molo Academy to be minyoo schools. Mr Rono as well put by the Chairman and the Seconder, Hon. Gichimu, who happens to have been his classmate at the law school, is an accomplished lawyer of high standing. He has an LLM degree from Strathmore University, and for those who cared to go through the Report, his master’s degree in Law at Strathmore University touches on everything to do with the intersection that the Chairman spoke about; law, finance, security operations and regulation of the financial services sector. Therefore, Mr Rono comes in at a time his skills, as a legal mind and as an expert from the security sector, having worked as a Deputy Director, as a Legal Officer and as a Senior Head of Legal at the National Intelligence Service, come in handy to serve in the position that he is being appointed to at the Financial Reporting Centre. The Chairman alluded to the fact that our country was grey listed some time back because of the challenges that we have since sorted out. Some of those challenges were addressed in the House last Session, when we enacted the Virtual Assets Bill which is now an Act of Parliament. In his engagement with the Committee, he alluded that he will actualise the implementation of this law. I want to tell Mr Rono that we will hold him accountable on the implementation of this law. If there is an area that would be a risk to our country, especially on terrorism financing and the flow of illicit money, it is virtual assets. The reason is because it has not been understood by many players in the financial services sector and therefore, becomes very easy for people to use virtual assets as a conduit for financing either terrorism or other crimes, or indeed moving illicit cash, be it from narcotics or other criminal engagements around the world, and across borders and economies. I am happy to note that the nominee clearly understands the job he is being nominated to. Having served as an Assistant Director in charge of Counter Terrorism at the National Intelligence Service from 2023 to 2024, this role must

have equipped him with the skills that he needs to make sure that the financial services sector is not being used to finance terrorism or illicit flow of cash.

We are heading into an election in 2027. I want to sensitise Mr Rono that in the run up to any election in this country, that is a time to watch out for illicit flow of money. Those who stole money from Telkom in the last Regime are now starting to bring it back from wherever they had hidden it, in preparation for the 2027 elections, and they are known. The thieves who stole money from the Ruaraka land scandal are gearing up, and the Member for Ruaraka is here. We must tell the thieves, because they are that you cannot steal land that belongs to school children, sell it, hide money in foreign countries, then pretend you are an angel in waiting and thereafter, bring back the money back into the country for electoral purposes. We have seen their activities and what they are planning.

I want to ask Mr Rono to be extremely vigilant and ensure that those who stole Ruaraka land and Telkom must be held accountable, because some of them are gearing to run as governors in certain counties. I hear some of them daring people, “I know you said you have a commission of inquiry on State capture, what are you waiting for?” I look at some of these characters and wonder. When we started speaking of a commission of inquiry on State capture in the last regime, the same characters started shivering and claimed they were being targeted politically. And when things have gone quiet, they start daring people. Please, do not dare us if you know you are a thief.

I have seen some of them lecture people on the status of education yet the best they did when they served in the Ministry of Education was to militarise our examinations. Children were scared while sitting for their exams. Mwalimu Hon. Omboko will tell you, a child cannot sit comfortably in an examination centre when a policeman is standing there with a gun. You are traumatising our children. That is why you see a myriad of mental health issues in this country because we have traumatised our children. Interestingly, these are the same people trying to lecture us on education, the education sector that they left in shambles. By January 2023, parents did not know where they were taking their children to after Grade 9, and you now think you can lecture us with illicit money.

Mr Rono must make ensure that all the illicit money is brought back into the country and taken back to the public coffers. Those who stole from Telkom must return it; those who stole the Ruaraka land should also return it. The Member of Parliament for Ruaraka knows there is no land anywhere in Ruaraka to build schools. All these Members of Parliament from Nairobi have nowhere to build new schools, yet the population in Nairobi is rising by the day.

Leader of the Majority Party, just to remind you that during that short education stint is when the Ruaraka saga happened. While you were the Chairperson, you helped stop the stealing of Government money in billions and, therefore, you should take credit for it.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for even reminding me. I was persecuted when I was the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee together with the Member for Bondo. When I declined to approve a further Ksh1.5 billion they wanted to steal from the Ruaraka land scandal in a Supplementary Budget. And now, those criminals and thieves want to lecture us. As Waswahili would say, Tunajuana kwa vilemba. Tunakujua wewe ni mwizi, tunakuelewa na tunaelewa wizi wako.

I have to remain in line with our procedures of not mixing languages. But I was saying Mr Rono has his work cut out especially now that we are moving towards elections; we must ensure there is no illicit flow of money into this economy in the pretence of electoral financing. The Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission also has a challenge; we must work together. I have seen him commit in this Report that he will work together with the Unclaimed Financial Assets Authority, because again, there are characters who have been stealing money. It is not just ordinary characters who steal money from the unclaimed assets. People who are

working in banks are fleecing families dry. People pass on, they leave money in their bank accounts and that money is wiped out within a few months.

The FRC, as the Director-General nominee has committed, must work with the Unclaimed Financial Assets Authority (UFAA) to ensure that they secure the assets of those who depart, to make sure that the money is secure. It either goes to the Authority that will make sure that it traces the beneficiaries of that money and give it to them. In the same spirit, I expect that FRC will now work with the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC), the new Commission on matters electoral financing, to make sure there is no illicit flow of money into this economy, or indeed out of this economy, as they work together with EACC and other security agencies to ensure that proceeds of crime and corruption even from governors is not leaving this country. They must work together with EACC.

I, therefore, want to support the nomination of Mr Rono, and urge the House to support him, because, looking at his credentials, his experience, his very rich experience in the security services sector, in the legal field, as Hon. Gichimu said, having been his classmate, he is a man of very good credentials and good standing in the society. He has never been charged in any court of law on any crime nor spent a night in a police cell, either for driving while drunk or even speeding on the road. This tells you he is a man of high integrity and therefore, we should approve him. I hope he will raise the work of FRC to international standards that we expect it to be operating under.

I came with a few of our colleagues from the United States for the National Prayer Breakfast and many Kenyans out there appreciate that even as there are sanctions going out on visa processing for many other African countries, Kenyans continue to enjoy a very good working relationship with the United States Embassy and the United States Department of State. Their visas are being processed without the unnecessary restrictions that may have come. We have helped to buttress our country as one with proper legal frameworks courtesy of the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Act (POCAMLA) of 2023 or the Acts of Parliament we have passed here on money laundering, counter-terrorism and proliferation of illicit flow of cash across borders. People are trustworthy even as they seek visas to visit other countries. I encourage all of us to support this gentleman, the FRC and other agencies that continue to ensure that we implement the laws we have passed, be it on counter-terrorism, illicit flow of cash or even the one on virtual assets that we passed last year.

With that, I support.

Thank you. Before we go to Hon. Dido Raso, I would like to recognise our students seated in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon. They are from Kariobangi High School in Embakasi North Constituency of Nairobi City County.

On behalf of the House and Members of Parliament from Nairobi City County, I would like to welcome these learners to the official House of debate, Parliament. I would like them to know that this is where decisions, especially on legislation and law making about this country are made. May they know that all laws in this country are made in this House. All the courts do is translate them. Every piece of legislation

originates from this House. This House exists for the welfare of society and the just government of the people.

I would also like to interest the learners especially those interested in the history and civics of their country. Take an interest in the politics and governance of your country so that some ladies and gentlemen might end up being representatives of their people in the National Assembly that represents the people of Kenya. That is to welcome them to this House. I hope next time they shall be here or coming back as representatives of the people in the Chamber, and not in the visitors' rows.

Thank you very much. Students, welcome very much. Observe the proceedings of the august House that is also known as the National Assembly. Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much. I would like to give a chance to the Member of Ruaraka Constituency. Take a minute please. You said that you are closer to them than Hon. KJ.

Hon. Temporarily Speaker, I knew that the Member of Dagoretti South Constituency was confusing Dagoretti with Embakasi when I heard him rising to welcome the young people.

Make that point in half a minute.

We have decided in Ruaraka, Embakasi and all the informal settlements that other people call slums that we will shine and do much better than people in Kikuyu Constituency or some other places. We have determined that living in slums will not take us back; and that we have brains that are just as good as those in Karen and those other areas.

I thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Let me join my colleagues in welcoming youngsters who have come to follow the proceedings of Parliament this afternoon. As your representatives in this House, we indeed mean it when we say the future is bright and that you are the leaders of tomorrow.

I support the Motion and thank Hon. Kimani Kuria and the Leader of the Majority Party for attempting to illuminate much through this Report. The main purpose of FRC is supervising the financial system. I always ask myself what we used to do when we did not have FRC. That

is where it is easy to slip much dirty money into this country. This is where there is terrorism financing, and money laundering and its dealing in drugs and bank heists.

I liked it when the Leader of the Majority Party talked about the Telkom heist. He must be among those who should be telling us why those individuals are walking free in big cars and enjoying the largesse life that the mama mboga who goes to Ukulima market at 4.00 a.m. does not enjoy. This is what we expect these institutions to do. That there is no easy life. There should not be easy money in this country. FRC is not to hamper investors in legitimate money. Do not create bureaucracy and hurdles to hinder us from generating enough foreign direct investment (FDI). It is through foreign direct investment that we can set up more industries, employ more youths, and create more opportunities in our country.

People in democracies can throw many darts at many things, including institutions. Today, the EACC is doing many recoveries of stolen assets by individuals who live in this country or outside and rarely do we associate ourselves with such success. I encourage the EACC to re-double its efforts because the easiest way of stashing away stolen money is by investing in assets. For Kenya to be a favourable investment destination, we must have a watertight financial regulatory system. Sometimes we are told that banks make a lot of money, but we do not question the sources of some of those profits.

I am happy that this Report clearly indicates that Mr Kipchirchir Rono was the most qualified. We often talk about the shareholders of this country, ensuring that the face of Kenya is represented in public appointments and tribal balance, but sometimes, we must bend over backwards to ensure that the best and most qualified are given the most important jobs in this country. Countries sometimes collapse, not from wars or bad leadership, but through mismanagement of the economy. If Mr Rono is given this job, he will have his work cut out. He must burn the midnight oil to ensure that Kenyans get the money that they have truly earned.

With those remarks, I beg to support the Special Motion.

Thank you very much, Member for Saku. Hon. Stephen Mogaka, Member for West Mugirango.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for giving me this opportunity to support this Special Motion. Financial management and international cashflows are key matters of concern. The nominee for appointment has academic credentials as well as hands-on experience that matches the responsibility that he is being appointed to.

As a banker, I have witnessed people spending money that they have not earned. Corruption is basically defined as somebody getting what they do not deserve. While my students are listening, I want to challenge the incoming appointee to realise that we cannot be a country where people suddenly become very clever and rich. One's academic or human capital must match the earnings that they attract because we cannot live in a country where people do not get jobs or opportunities that match their qualifications. You will find upstarts who brag that they have acquired so much wealth such that schooling does not matter.

I congratulate this nominee in advance for having studied at ‘The University’. We all know that there is only one university in Kenya that we call ‘the University’. I am also proud that he obtained his master’s degree in Law from a college that is renowned for its financial training course. Therefore, he is properly tooled for the challenges that he will face. I challenge the nominee that upon assumption of office, I want to see him and the institution that he will be heading cracking down on governors who treat county budgets like their personal property, which they use to live lavishly while offering no services to the citizens.

The nominee will face challenges, especially since we are about to go into a general election. If there was ever a time that we needed to crack down on those intending to bring rogue campaign funds into the country to interfere with free, fair and transparent elections, it

is now. The Financial Reporting Centre should be ready to crack down on such people. We are aware that some conmen are already opening up supermarkets to disguise their money laundering. Some are engaging in the transport business and enjoying profit margins that are unheard of in the transport sector, with the intention of pretending to have collected fares. They intend to justify that illicit money as they use it to interfere with a very noble calling that Kenyans enjoy in determining who their leaders will be.

Mr Speaker, I cannot say more because this gentleman’s credentials and track record speak for themselves. I support his nomination and appointment to this noble office to help bring sanity to the financial management sphere in this Republic.

I support the Special Motion.

Hon. Kwenya Thuku, the Member for Kinangop.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am sorry, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I take this opportunity to support the Report by the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning on the nomination and appointment of...

Hon. Kwenya, you know you are next to the Chairlady of the Kenya Women Parliamentary Association (KEWOPA) . You just called me ‘Mr Speaker.’ I forgave Hon. Mogaka Stephen who kept saying ‘Mr Speaker.’ I assumed that he had not realised that the substantive Speaker had left the seat, but I will not forgive you, especially since you are seated next to the Chairlady of KEWOPA.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I have sought your forgiveness. I apologise on the same. That was just an oversight.

I rise to support the Report by the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning on the nomination of Mr Rono to oversee this institution, which is a creation of the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Act of 2009, to ensure that all the money circulating in our economy is legitimately earned, so as to prevent any proceeds of crime from infiltrating our economy. It was easy for investigative authorities in the recent past, especially the EACC, to trace how much money an individual makes, banks and even transacts in a business, so as to kill the culture of pilferage and theft. Our public institutions have suffered in the past due to people pilfering money, saving it in banks and using it to buy properties. It is very difficult to do so today because there is a “big brother” who is watching to ensure that every coin circulating in our economy is legitimate.

I do not know Mr Rono’s entire history but from what the Committee has reported, he comes out as an astute and firm lawyer who can be trusted. Therefore, I support his appointment so that we can make sure that any proceeds of crime will not find their way into our economy. I support the Special Motion.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. KJ, what is out of order?

No, I have not called you. It is the turn of the Member for Bondo. I will give you a chance to contribute.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support the Report of the Committee. I want to say two things. Banks have dealt with many problems in the last 10 years. They forward these problems to individual account users. They come up with all manner of restrictions, in terms of how much money one can withdraw and spend, and how many withdrawals one can do in a given period. All this is because of how money moves and the financial systems that we have.

There are many things that happen at the individual level when we have too many controls that restrict some of the very clear transactions that one has to do. We have witnessed this in the last 10 years because of these problems that we experience from time to time of illegitimate money coming through our systems. The banks try to clean this. When they do so, they give individual users more problems as they transact their businesses. The Financial Reporting Centre may work well for the purpose of helping the banks clean up the illegitimate transactions and transfers of money. Banks now struggle with the big problem of cyber transactions. Every single week, they bring in an alert of some fraudsters abusing them and running behind accounts. They face many problems to the extent that they look for more ways of how people can transfer money. We are giving more headache to the banks than the commercial sense that they are supposed to do.

There were institutions that were doing this job before we created the Financial Reporting Centre. What was the biggest challenge? What kind of remedies will the Financial Reporting Centre put in place to make sure that the job is done well? One big problem is tracking fraud. Generally, it is now a big industry for the police officers and guys who check backgrounds like Safaricom and the International Criminal Court (ICC). By the end of the day, you create something that is supposed to help, but at the end, it becomes a big industry for purposes of official users, official Government agencies and officers who are supposed to track fraud. I believe the Chairperson of the Committee is aware of this. When we are talking about the Financial Reporting Centre at this stage, are we transferring that kind of official fraud industry to it? All of us are aware that when you send police officers or EACC to chase and track fraudsters, you give them space to look for money.

We even see that now in the criminal justice system, how theft and crime are handled. Crime is reported to the police officers who use that report to come around because they are instructed by the State Counsel that they must present very clear and watertight cases in court. So, they end up being courts themselves. The police officers and State Counsels do the work of magistrates and courts at police stations and State Counsel’s office. In the end, things go round. What is supposed to cure our weaknesses ends up being a bigger problem to the society and this country.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I support the Special Motion.

On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much. Chairperson. Do you want to inform the Member for Bondo?

Yes, please.

Would you like to be informed by the Chairman?

Yes, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Okay. Please proceed.

Thank you very much. The Member has raised a very valid point of concern. However, it is good to inform him that it is this honourable House that passed the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Act which established the Financial Reporting Centre. It also talks about the role of the Director-General of this entity.

Most importantly, entities like the EACC, the DCI and the National Police Service do many functions such as petty crime. The Financial Reporting Centre is mandated by the law to collect intelligence on anti-money laundering, countering terrorism and proliferation financing. The three roles are expressly given to it. The police officers are in charge of traffic and maintaining law and order. The Financial Reporting Centre is given the mandate to collect intelligence and share it across the border with other such institutions from other countries where we are signatories to a protocol.

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Members, before we go to Hon. John Waweru, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome our students, seated in the Public Gallery this afternoon, from Bridgan Girls High School, Mavoko Constituency, Machakos County. You are welcome to the National Assembly.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is well in my place to welcome the learners from Machakos County to this esteemed House of debate and the place where the laws of Kenya are made. In observing the proceedings today, I would like to invite them to interest themselves in the history of their country and know how this House was built, the reason it was built and why it exists today because tomorrow, they will represent their people in this very esteemed august House.

I rise to support this approval hearing of the nominee for the position of the Director- General of the Financial Reporting Centre, one and only Mr Naphtaly Kipchirchir Rono. In the interest of time and noting that there is a lot of business this afternoon that needs to be done, the only addition I will put to the debate this afternoon is to welcome Mr Rono to come into this new position, knowing that we operate in a completely new world. Even as he comes into office, he must be cognisant of the issues that are happening using the traditional means of getting work done and what is happening in the new world, especially in cyberspace. It is in the interest of this country to secure its cyberspace, knowing fully well that business is not only happening in that cyberspace, but also human interaction and narratives that are being formed there. It is in his best interest to walk the journey of not only protecting that space that is interactive in the human endeavour, but also to take note that today, the country suffers a great risk of exposure in cyberspace.

Speaking about that, I invite Mr Naphtali, as he comes into office, to take cognisance of what is happening, in terms of cyber currencies. The fact is that, as a country, we might not have any other option but to consider how we move from fiat monies and come into this new world of cryptocurrencies and other cyber monies; they shall also require securing. Also, importantly, in that space he also has to be conscious of how much trading is happening, even internationally, in the black market, using the new spaces of cryptocurrency and so on.

So, all I needed to say is a big congratulation to Bwana Naftali Kipchirchir Rono. I know that he is up to the task. Looking at his Curriculum Vitae and his line of career, I know that he shall be a fitting Director-General for the Financial Reporting Centre, and all I want to do is to welcome him to a Financial Reporting Centre that is fit for the purpose of the world today. He must also consider that beyond fiat money, there is a lot that is being transacted in cyberspace, and he has to be conscious of that reality.

With that, I support the approval of the nominee for the position of Director-General at the Financial Reporting Centre.

Is there a point of order from the Member for Laikipia? Was your hand up? Okay. Hon. (Dr) Wilberforce Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Madam Speaker, I am gender-sensitive. You know, last time we used to joke with the other Speaker and say, “Madam Speaker, Sir.” But here I am very well aware.

Allow me to also support the Report by the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning in its recommendation to approve the appointment of Mr Naftali Kipchirchir Rono as the Director-General of the Financial Reporting Centre I have been

convinced by my colleague, the Member for Gichugu, that he attended the same class with him. I listened to the irrefutable evidence that he went to school. And he did not just go to school; he went to the University of Nairobi, because there is only one university. The rest are there as constituent colleges masquerading to compete. As I stand here, over the years…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Yes, what is out of order, Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, is the Member in order to call all other universities, apart from the University of Nairobi, constituent colleges? There are some of us in this House who went to other serious universities, like Kenyatta University, for our first degree. So, you cannot dismiss all the other universities just because you went to a university here in town.

Yes, it is completely out of order, because yours truly seated in this seat is a product of Kenyatta University, as are the Hon. KJ, the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning, and the Chair of KEWOPA. So, you are going to be in a lot of trouble. You are completely out of order. Can you withdraw? I want to give you a chance to withdraw. Some of the students who are here will go to Laikipia University, and others will go to Kenyatta University. So, when you talk about “the, the,” you are discouraging our students. So, please withdraw.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. For those of us who have been here a little longer, the first university in this country was the University of Nairobi. The rest of the universities were constituent colleges of the University of Nairobi and later broke out during Moi’s time to become universities. The last time I was in university, there was only one university. But if it has offended some of the young guys here, let me rephrase it. He went to the premier university in the Republic of Kenya for the purposes of studying. So, allow me to proceed and prosecute my case, because it does not really matter. If you did not go to the University of Nairobi, do not feel bad. You can still go back to study; probably take a small short-term course we can introduce in due course.

Hon. Wandeto, what is out of order? You seem agitated.

Because, Hon. Temporary Speaker, your instructions were explicit that he should apologise. Now he is debating his own statement and making it worse. I am also a product of Kenyatta University, and I feel very bad about what Hon. (Dr) Oundo is saying.

Hon. (Dr) Oundo, you can see that the House is not happy with your statement, and I would like to direct you to withdraw.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, let me rephrase my statement. I am rephrasing my statement that, since time immemorial, there has only been one premier university, the University of Nairobi. Others came after the University of Nairobi. The University of Nairobi birthed these universities. That is a historical fact. However much you want to make noise, however much you want to be agitated, that is the fact of the matter. Allow me, to proceed with more important matters than these sideshows.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Members, we need to make progress. Chairman, you know I cannot deny you a point of order, bearing in mind that this is your business.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, we may belittle this particular matter of referring to other universities in Kenya as constituent colleges and small universities. If you check our Public Gallery today, there are many students. All these students will not have the benefit of joining the University of Nairobi. Some of them will go to Dedan

Kimathi University, Kenyatta University, Meru University, Kiriri University and even Karatina University. The Member cannot belittle those universities.

That is why you should really insist that he must go on record to withdraw the statement where he called the other universities constituent colleges. I am saying this: I have a lot of respect for the University of Nairobi. I am almost completing my PhD at the University of Nairobi. But that does not mean that the other universities are small universities or that they are inferior to the University of Nairobi. So, I really beg the Speaker that you instruct the Hon. Member to withdraw as you had earlier guided.

I am seeing more agitation from other Members. The Member of Parliament for Kirinyaga County.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I do not think the Member is out of order. He only said it is the only university. You know, Kenyatta University is called Kenyatta University. There is no other university in Kenya that starts with ‘The.’ The only university is the University of Nairobi.

Hon. Members, I have already made my decision on how we are going to proceed. But before I do that, let me give a chance to Hon. KJ. He will be the last one on this.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this can only be settled at the level of a university. I want to go on record that there is a very respected professor in this country who once said that if you want to know a student from the University of Nairobi, you will see them walking in town as if they own Nairobi. But if you want to know a student from Kenyatta University, you shall see a student walking in town as a person who does not care who owns Nairobi. I rest my case.

Hon. (Dr) Oundo, it is good to keep checking your facts, especially on the current ranking of universities, because it is extremely important. I would like to encourage you to desist from taking that route of talking about one university being better than the other, so that you can focus on the debate for today. I am now directing you to withdraw and come back to the relevant matter that we are discussing, which is a very important matter concerning Mr Naftali Kipchirchir Rono that is being debated. If you go outside that matter, I am going to stop you.

No, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Being a father and having left a lecture hall…

You have to start by withdrawing.

Yes, that is what I want to do.

I know that you have a lot of experience, and you can keep us here up to Six O’clock debating this matter. So, start by withdrawing.

Fine, let me recant the statement so that the rest of the Members do not…

Withdraw. Are you going to withdraw?

I am recanting the statement.

No!

Fine. Let me withdraw for record purposes, so that I do not hurt the feelings of Members and so that we do not miss the focus of the debate.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

What is out of order, Hon. Omboko Milemba?

Education is an equaliser and Members of Parliament as representatives of teachers, must not take their comments and jokes beyond. Education is the only equaliser that brings all the students and people together depending on their qualifications.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this House also has students from different schools and as an educationalist, a teacher, they end up in universities and we created all these universities courtesy of need. I have the history of the university creation since and before Independence. It is very important for Hon. Members to be conscious of the statements they make on the Floor of this House specifically and especially for our learners spread all over the country in different universities, schools, colleges and even other vocational training institutions because part of our responsibility is to encourage, promote and make sure that these learners can thrive from places where they are and become important citizens of Kenya who will contribute to this country.

Therefore, Hon. (Dr) Oundo is completely out of order and I put it to him that even in his own constituency, such a comment will discourage students who are in other colleges and universities. It is very important with humility that he withdraws that statement for the sake of the education sector, teachers, learners and students of Kenya. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, Hon. Omboko Milemba. Hon. (Dr) Oundo.

We had already closed that chapter.

Hon. (Dr) Oundo, I would like you to withdraw the statement that you made.

I did, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

I would like you to withdraw.

Fine, I withdraw. I have already done that.

Proceed.

I have already done that. Many of us remember the Goldenberg financial scam. Many of us remember so many other scams such as the Anglo-Leasing scam. I think it was out of this wisdom that the Proceeds of Crime and Anti Money Laundering Act was enacted. All my time has been taken by interjections. I need to be given my time to prosecute my case. Thank you. It was on this understanding that the Act was promulgated, enacted and became operational. One of the facts that can slow economic growth is illicit financial flows, illicit movement of money from one point to another. It is on this basis that the Act recreated the Financial Reporting Centre over time. It came into effect in 2012. Probably it is time to start asking the question: what have been the hits and the misses?

Hon. (Dr) Oundo your time is up. Hon. Ruweida Obo. Are you able to contribute? Okay. Please proceed Member for Lamu East.

Asante Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Nimeweka sana Hoja ya Nidhamu.

Order, Hon. KJ and your team over there. I know the topic is exciting. You may continue. I am not telling you to disperse but please, if you have to consult, consult in low tones. Proceed, Member for Lamu East.

Mhe. Spika wa Muda, niliwekwa sana kwa sababu ya Hoja ya nidhamu lakini kwa sababu imepitwa na wakati, nachukua fursa hii kuunga mkono. Asante.

Hon. Wandeto, Member for Tetu.

Thank you. The Financial Reporting Centre is an important guardrail in this country in the war against illicit flow of funds, financing of terrorism and corruption proceeds. Kenya being part of the international community, it is very important that we have a strong Financial Reporting Centre. In this country, we have been victims of terrorism in the past especially Al-Qaeda and Al-Shabaab. In many of these instances, we have realised that those monies either came through some of the forex bureaus or other informal channels. So, it is very important as a country we keep strengthening our ability to detect and deter the illicit flow of these funds.

So, I rise to support the new appointment. We really hope that the candidate will act without fear or favour because again, the Financial Reporting Centre is one of those places where sometimes depending on who is bringing the money, looks the other way. I hope that he will be independent and ensure that every Kenyan whether big or small, is treated the same way; and that all illicit transactions or all transactions that do not meet the relevant thresholds will be questioned, traced and tracked so that we can have the integrity of the financial system.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I rise to support.

Thank you very much. Hon. Omboko Milemba.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to contribute on the appointment of the nominee to the Financial Reporting Centre as it has been very ably explained. I give my accolades to the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning who has this very good habit of giving us background information on every other topic or Bill he deals with. He explained the background of this area especially the Financial Reporting Centre and what it means to the world, and also what it means in terms of monitoring, evaluation and how Kenya has performed historically including the fact that at one point both in 2011 and 2024, Kenya was grey-listed but of course we have been lucky not to go to the level of being blacklisted. That means that basically this is a law that is also part and parcel of the international laws that govern the whole world in terms of monitoring money laundering and other acts of crime that are related to finances.

Therefore, creating a strong Financial Reporting Centre and having a strong person within this sector and space, gives us credibility upon which our ranking shall improve and then not fear the risk of being blacklisted at any given time given that all this will go into determining whether we can get friendly grants, loans and other financial relationships with partners both bilateral and multilateral. This is given the fact that the world currently is a global village. This comes at the correct time when we have the Proceeds of Crime and Anti-Money Laundering Act laws which were initiated in 2009, which in Section 21 established this Financial Reporting Centre and now needs to be actualised and have people in that space who are responsible to make sure that this Centre can work.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this Centre has several functions which are not limited to assisting in being an independent body to look at the proceeds of crime, combating money laundering, terrorism financing, proliferation and financing of these terrorism acts. Therefore, it is very important that a nominee to this position must be a very qualified person. The Mover

gave us very good history of this space but went ahead also to indicate that the nominee is a lawyer with a lot of qualifications in that area. We further got from the Seconder that he has also worked in this space as an investigating agent of crimes that are related to finances. Therefore, I support his nomination but ask that as he does his job, he must be aware that the position has dangers and opportunities.

One danger in this space is that whenever we allow anybody to investigate finance- related crime and money laundering, some people take bribes and end up picking the money themselves. I believe this will not be an office that picks up the bad behaviour which possibly occurs in other agencies. He must be a person of great integrity to ensure he protects both the sector and the country’s image given that this is international law. I also want to indicate that the nominee should do his work very well so as to make us proud.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to support the nominee. Thank you.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

What is out of order the Member for Tharaka?

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. There is nothing out of order.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, having listened to contributors to this Motion and the overwhelming support it has received, I rise under Standing Order 95 and request that the Mover be now called upon to reply.

Hon. Members, I would like first to establish whether it is the mood of the House that I now call upon the mover to reply.

Mover to reply.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I first thank all Members who read the Report and spoke kindly of the nominee. I am happy that Members who spoke agree with the Committee’s findings that the candidate is well qualified, well learned and well experienced to carry out the role of Director-General of the Financial Reporting Centre. He brings diverse skills having worked in various institutions, including NIS. That means he is not new to the security and intelligence space. I hope the nominee will take up the matter of grey listing immediately so that we get out of it. This is important because if the 10 points listed as impeding factors are not lifted, it will become complicated, difficult, slow and expensive to conduct financial transactions across the globe. You would be surprised at the amount of global trade Kenya is doing. Nowadays, if you want a gadget or anything from another country, it is easy to order, have it shipped and make payments. This has opened Kenya to global space. It is, therefore, absolutely important that the measures required for us to go to the white list are addressed. That should be the first assignment of the nominee.

I also want to tell students across the country that education is an equaliser. That is why this young man is being approved by this House because he went to school. He has a law degree and a master’s degree. Sometimes it is discouraging because some qualified people with degrees are at home without jobs and others are bodaboda riders because they have not found a job they trained for. However, that should not discourage young people from going to school to acquire skills. I also urge employers to give equal chances to students from all universities. I remember when I made my university choices, we were told that Bachelor of Commerce was best at the University of Nairobi, medicine is best at Moi University, engineering best at Jomo Kenyatta University of Agriculture and Technology and Kenyatta University was best known

for education. However, universities across the country have increased capacity, lecturers and infrastructure. Therefore, students from Kiriri Women’s University of Science and Technology, Dedan Kimathi University of Technology, Meru University of Science and Technology, University of Embu or Moi University and all accredited institutions of higher learning should be given equal chances. This is because the courses offered in these institutions are accredited by credible institutions. Therefore, students have the requisite skills for advertised jobs. I urge employers to be fair and give equal chance to everyone.

With those remarks, Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to reply.

Next Order.

Thank you very much, Hon. Members. This is resumption of debate. The Bill having been moved, seconded and question proposed, interested Members press the intervention button. I will start with the Member for Wundanyi, Hon. Mwashako.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for giving me this opportunity to make my comments and support the Industrial Training (Amendment) Bill. It has come at the right time and speaks to the hearts of many artisans, fundis and young people out there that have experience and have learned the art of what they do. Therefore, this becomes a very important Bill and policy for this country to adopt.

I commend my brother who has brought this Bill. We know recognition of prior learning has been with us for the last four years but there has never been an anchor law to support it. In our country, we have very good fundis who can do very good work in different sectors. These are young people who have been doing their trade for many years. Unfortunately, they do not get the same treatment when seeking employment or Government opportunities.

When I first vied as a Member of Parliament in 2017, I engaged tradesmen and fundis in my constituency. In every meeting I held with them, they would complain that when it came to being recognised by the National Construction Authority (NCA) , they would not be allowed on some construction sites. This was a big issue. We went to the National Industrial Training Authority (NITA) to try to accredit these young men and other fundis so that they could be recognised by the National Construction Authority. We know that we have fundis that are very good in their trade to the extent that they challenge those with degrees and diplomas. Treating them differently was not fair and it was discriminatory.

As I support the Bill, I am reminded to contribute the fact that we have skills even in mining. Sometimes all we think about when we talk about fundis is carpenters, masons, tailors

and people who have worked and gained skills in trades that support the Jua Kali sector. However, we also have young people who have given all their lifetime in doing artisanal mining. Therefore, we must also recognise those who have been doing artisanal mining as experts in that field even as we pass the Bill today. That is so that we give them an opportunity to get employment when necessary as we accredit those who have been doing mining for long. We may also give them opportunity to teach others in our TVETs.

Counties like Taita Taveta known for mining have people who have been doing mining for decades yet they do not have any certification to show. Today, we have set up a gemstone centre in Voi but it looks for people who have gone to universities and big colleges every time it advertises jobs. They forget that the art of cleaning gemstones, mining, and identifying where minerals are is not taught in schools and universities only. It can pass down generations through learning and following what their parents have been doing.

As we pass the Bill, we must include mining artisans and experts that have been there for many years. They have learned the art of mining and identifying where minerals are. You will be surprised about where I come from. They do not need an expert geologist to tell them where rubies, iron ore, sapphires and precious stones are. Young people who have been there for many years tell exactly where to find rubies and green garnets without bringing a geologist.

This recognition of prior learning is important for countries such as mine so that the young people of our place get opportunity to even get jobs in the State Department of Mining for instance. They may be treated equal to those who have gone to universities and colleges and get opportunities to even teach in our TVET institutions. The Taita Taveta National Polytechnic has started a gemmology centre under the School of Mining. I will tell you that those teaching in that institution may not be more expert than the people who have been doing this work for many years.

The recognition of prior learning in the Bill we are passing today must embrace all other sectors, not just a few sectors. I am standing here to defend the mining sector so that the young people can be recognised and given certificates and everything that they need - not only certificate to show that they are experts. I think the qualification authority needs to look at certain elements. I should be given a matching certificate up to a degree level if I am an expert at a level. I should compete with a university graduate to prove that I have what it takes to get the same job the graduate is getting.

[The Temporary Speaker (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Hon. Omboko Milemba) in the Chair] I want to relate this with what is happening in our TVET institutions as I sit. There has been much confusion in our TVET institutions today. There have been changes in curricula so often that we do not understand what is happening in our TVET institutions. If you go to national polytechnics and TVET institutions today, you will be told students who join these colleges to do diploma courses that take three years are changed to do the courses through modules or one-year certifications. It is a good thing.

However, information dissemination is not happening. Parents do not seem to understand what is happening in our TVET institutions. Students are getting out of school because of the much confusion in our TVET institutions. They joined the institutions knowing that family households would pay a certain amount of money. However, the Government has failed to give its capitation.

The sponsorship the Government promised is no longer going to our TVET students. What the Government had promised as help is not going to our TVET institutions. There is much confusion and many dropouts. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I believe you are a Member of Parliament like me. You know they are really pursuing us to offer them more bursary funding because the Government is not paying their capitation and loans.

We must call the Cabinet Secretary for Education as we support the Bill and talk about prior recognition of learning. The Cabinet Secretary should order the Principal Secretary in charge of TVETs to bring sanity to the institutions particularly when it comes to curricula. The Ministry of the National Treasury and Economic Planning and funding agencies of the Government such as HELB and the rest should give money to students in TVET as they give to university students.

I beg to support as I sit. Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Mwashako. Why do you doubt that I am a Member of Parliament? I am.

I am very passionate about where I went to school. I will always refer to the place in whatever I do. That is why I was telling the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning that he probably found it incomplete until he has gone somewhere. That is beside the point because we are still on education and training matters.

Let me also stand on this floor this minute to support the Industrial Training (Amendment) Bill of 2024 brought by our good colleague Hon. (Dr) Oron. He is the incoming Governor of Kisumu County. Let me start by giving two very interesting stories so that I put the matter into context. The Chinese came and called for workers when Funyula Constituency was awarded affordable housing programmes that have changed the landscape at Alema. The technicians needed included builders, electricians and others.

Many turned up and were asked to give their certificates. Many said, “I do not have a certificate but I built for Mheshimiwa. The house is still standing”. The Chinese asked, “How do I know? I never saw you building the house that is standing up to now.” The Chinese said, “There is only one way to know that you know work. First, before you enter here, give me any certificate that proves you have gone to school to know how to build”. Many told the Chinese that they have built their houses since time immemorial, before colleges came. That some of the houses are still standing yet they did not have certificates. It was a very good debate. Eventually we had to tell them to bring papers.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, you and I know that hoes or jembes came to Kenya just the other day. We used to smelt iron ore to make hoes and all tools and implements for many years. Nobody was ever taken to a formal school to learn such skills yet the people produced those tools and equipment that sustained economies and livelihoods. There are many instances where many people do not go to formal schools or formal training institutions to gain skills or perfect and hone skills. They already have them naturally.

I remember I went to encourage young boys to go back to college or Bumbe National Polytechnic when we had the skills acquisition programme at the NG-CDF of Funyula. Many told me, “Mheshimiwa, I am used to getting Ksh300 every day. How will my children eat when you tell me to go back to school for three years? How will I entertain myself after work? I cannot do it and I know the skills. Let me go”. I remember that the Azimio la Umoja One Kenya Coalition, under the indefatigable Baba Raila Amolo Odinga, had a proposal in their

manifesto that upon the conclusion of the elections, they would institutionalise a programme that would recognise prior learning. Without a doubt, the sponsor of the Bill must be a member of the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM), who understands the legacy and ways of Baba Raila Amolo Odinga. We rise to celebrate him because through Hon. Oron, Baba’s spirit has been brought here. Learning never ends. Learning should not only happen in formal systems. I sincerely and wholeheartedly support this Bill. I pray and hope that we will see it to the end.

Clause 3 of the Bill states that: The principal Act is amended in Section 3A by inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (9)(i) (ia) establishing a system and a structure that assesses and certifies a person who has acquired the skills through informal, non-formal or experiential training or education in any vocational trade or craft. The problem is bureaucracy. I hope that they will make the process flexible and not too bureaucratic to the extent that persons who have acquired skills over time find being certified to be cumbersome, onerous, and a punishment. We should have included a further provision that within six months of the enactment of this Bill, the Cabinet Secretary in charge of technical training will propose regulations to give effect to these amendments in law. We usually amend the main law but fail to operationalise the same. The amendments remain on paper.

We have cases of school dropouts, some premeditated and others due to circumstances beyond a person’s control, but people learn on the job. For example, a mechanic can learn to fix and repair a vehicle through apprenticeship. However, if a tender or a job is advertised at the county, they do not get employed because they do not have any papers that recognise their skills.

Hon. Mwashako has raised a very fundamental issue. The Bill only talks about some recognised technical skills. Other skills cannot fit in this Bill, such as master brewers who make local brews that make people happy. They sit and discuss while enjoying the brews, just as the lovable President Uhuru Kenyatta described it – uji after work. Despite that, they cannot get a license. The Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS) cannot license them. We need to also include such skills. The Bill should be expanded to include all skills that produce things that people can see, enjoy or use. Even a horn blower in the village who blows a horn to announce the death of an octogenarian must be recognised because they can work in musical competitions to train young boys to blow the horn.

The skills in this country are endless. We pass those skills from generation to generation. In the Coast region, grinding a coconut is a specialised skill. You acknowledge that art as you watch the way a lady sits on that stool. It is a science and not happenstance. It is a skill that is acquired over time. That is why we call upon the addition of these skills as we move forward.

As I conclude, many political formations will come up with manifestos as we approach the elections. This proposal was one of the key planks of the Azimio la Umoja One Kenya Coalition manifesto. Our votes were stolen at the 11th hour, just as we were getting there. I can see that Hon. KJ and Sir George are looking at me. That is a story for another day. As a country, we must institutionalise a system which works regardless of which political party wins an election. If there are good ideas in another party's manifesto…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Order, Hon. Oundo. Hon. John Waweru has a point of order.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this is a House of record and facts. Hon. Oundo has raised a contentious issue about an election result. We all

know that there are avenues for contesting election results. Those election results were prosecuted to the highest court of this country and we know what the outcome was.

Other than being a campaign tool, it is very clear who the winner of the 2022 General Election was and that matter should not be brought up in such a serious debate, especially by a man of the calibre of Prof Oundo, who knows the place for such contests. I did not intend to interrupt this debate, but I wanted to go on record that that statement is totally out of order.

Hon. Oundo, you may proceed because you did not say who stole the election. It could have been the birds. Proceed. That is a debate for another day.

In any case, the report of the National Dialogue Committee (NADCO) and the 10-Point Agenda establishing the amorphous ‘Broad- Based Government’ make reference to the opening up of the ‘server.’ I am not talking about Hon. KJ’s server. Let me conclude…

Hon. Oundo, I had given you a chance to proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I was raising a very fundamental point. Many of these political formations have very excellent manifesto. Some parties win but others do not. As a country, we should find a way to institutionalise a process of sifting through the various manifestos after the elections, picking good ideas, coalescing them together and moving on as a country, instead of just being stuck at one level. As an example, the idea for this Bill was in our manifesto and I am happy that the Bill has found support across the aisle on both political sides. I just hope that we will see it to the end.

I also hope that any certification issued is neutral. I remember that when I was a lecturer at the University of Nairobi, the registration numbers for parallel students were completely different from those of regular students. That used to traumatise and isolate them from the rest of the students. Therefore, I hope the certification will be in the form of a universally neutral certificate that does not indicate a student’s skills. However, as part of the assessment and certification, the student or the trainee must also demonstrate communication skills and proficiency. However good you are with your hands, if you cannot communicate, it becomes difficult for you to pass over your knowledge to somebody else.

All in all, I support the Bill. I wish to tell my friends that elections are over. We will be here next year to see whether we will open the ‘server.’

Very well, Hon. Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also want to thank Hon. Oron in a very special way. He hails from a constituency where too many people operate in the technical space but are not formally recognised. Hon. Oron, the people of Kisumu Central sent you to Parliament to do such work. We must congratulate you for bringing such a good Bill to the House.

The recognition of prior learning, as a matter of concern for this House, becomes a conversation for today. It is such a critical conversation today because you, as a teacher, understands the reforms happening in our education sector. We are realising that this country must now educate learners at every level to be fit for purpose for a time such as this one.

This country has run into the tragedy of graduating very many people from formal education at different levels, whether at secondary school, college or university level. Many

have received formal training meant for absorption into white-collar jobs but those opportunities do not exist. We, therefore, stand to support this proposal brought by Hon. Oron. This House ought to now concern itself with this issue of prior learning recognition so that it is formalised in law to an extent that we are now able to address the issues that are coming up in the space of employment and youth engagement.

I hail from Dagoretti South Constituency, which is very well known. It is awash with technical expertise whether it is the florists lining up on Ngong Road all the way from City Mortuary to Karen, the woodworkers, metalworkers, or mechanics at Dagoretti Corner. All these people have technically trained on the job and do not hold any certification. The tragedy comes when opportunities show up. For example, as we speak today, a meat-cutter’s job is extremely lucrative, even in foreign countries. We know what is happening in Europe. The working generation is ageing and dying off. Unfortunately, reproduction has not matched the pace required to replace the workforce that is dying off in Europe. Therefore, opportunities exist for our people, including meat-cutters in Dagoretti Market, those slaughtering in the abattoirs, and those skilled in butchery works but lack certification.

This Bill that Hon. Oron has brought is very relevant for a time such as this one. My bait to this Bill, and I will have my opportunity in the Third Reading, is that we must tie it to what is already happening in our Technical and Vocational Education and Training. This is so that when someone needs certification, they can present themselves at Kinyanjui Technical and can be assessed for their skill level so that they can either be absorbed into a training or a certification programme that qualifies them for the skill level they possess.

When we look at what is happening around the world, we must go further. Even as we talk about technical training at the college level, we must also look at our Competency-Based Education (CBE) and ask ourselves: at what stage should a learner’s expertise be identified? At what stage should a learner’s strength be identified? This is so that the learner is trained along a line that is specific to their gifting and interest?

I grew up at a time when we had technical high schools. They no longer exist but the technical high schools today, especially with the CBE system, are urgently needed. It is so much so that a learner at primary or junior school level can recognise a technical space and go specifically to study either metalwork, woodwork, computers, or these emerging technologies. Hon. Oron has brought to us a conversation that is for a time such as this one. When we look at countries that are doing so well in terms of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, we look to the East and we can see what is happening in South Korea and the kind of training that is happening in China. We look to Europe and see technical education development happening in countries such as Germany. Kenya is in a pole position to lead in the space of technical training.

We do have a youth bulge that we ought to turn it from a calamity into an advantage. The young people we have today do not all have to take the line of academia because with academia, the opportunities available are in teaching, lecturing in universities, and research but not all learners will end up there. So, it is not in the interest of this country for every learner to go to university. In fact, what we should be looking at is reversing the past drive of converting technical institutes into universities because not every learner will end up in a white-collar job in this country.

When we look at what is happening in what is called the Fourth Industrial Revolution, we see the great need for technical subjects. As we go into the future, there shall be a need for young people who shall be developers in the technical space developing software and hardware, developing in the minds of the computers of the future, but also being able to engineer the hands and the legs that shall be operating the robots that shall be working. The world we are speaking of is not a far-fetched one.

If today you go to my alma mater, Kenyatta University, you will find that it has the Kenyatta University Teaching, Referral and Research Hospital (KUTRRH). It must be known

to people like Hon. Oundo that Kenyatta University is a university well into the future. As we speak today, Kenyatta University has a fully-fledged referral hospital. If he were to go to that hospital, he would find an equipment that is highly specialised, known as the CyberKnife. It is an equipment able to perform surgery without intrusion so that the doctor who qualifies from medical school at the University of Nairobi will end up practising at Kenyatta University, a university that is well into the future. Hon. Oundo has to find a place of respect for my alma mater, Kenyatta University. If the University of Nairobi was the icon university of the 1970s, I have to tell him that in this Fourth Industrial Revolution, the university of the future is none other than Kenyatta University along Thika Road.

I stand to support what has been presented here by Hon. Oron because this is fit for now and the future. I thank Hon. Oron, and I hope the people of Kisumu Town see what you came to do in Parliament because with this, we are speaking well into the future and well into the Fourth Industrial Revolution.

I thank you Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Very well spoken. I can see you are still retaining the canter and banter around the universities. I will invite the two of you for a tea session so that you may exhaust that. For now, let us have Hon. Gitonga Murugara.

Absolutely. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. It is nice to listen to that banter, especially given that I am of the University of Nairobi. Sincerely speaking, that is the only university that is recognised. The rest of them have issues from everywhere, and now every college has mushroomed into a university bearing strange names.

Order, Hon, Murugara! We have had enough of that and it took a very long time. I know you were not around. Please, do not go there again. Proceed with your contribution.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. It is always nice to remember all these things, including the schools we went to. Unless they are mentioned here, our students will not get mentored in the way we are supposed to mentor them.

Allow me to thank Hon. Joshua Oron for coming up with this innovative Bill that seems to go back into history. We recognise some of the industrialists we used to have before formal education was introduced in the country. Africa was always talked about as a dark continent that never had anything to be proud of, especially for not having invented the wheel. However, it must be said without prejudice that Africa had some of the best industrialists at that time who were disregarded purely because formal education was introduced. We were told that what we were doing in Africa was not education but some form of artistry that was not relevant at that time. Today, some people still think it was not relevant. We had very profound blacksmiths who did a lot of metal work with precision. We had potters who were doing a lot of pottery work with clay and produced some of the most fantastic products which would go all the way to China and everywhere else. In medicine, we had our doctors who later were derogated to witchdoctors – I do not know why they were called witchdoctors – then to herbalists, just because they were using herbs without disclosing that even the most modern medicine now is founded on herbs from trees in forests everywhere.

The Bill seeks to introduce into the country the fact that prior learning and experience should now be considered when it comes to development of industrial skills. That is extremely important. Today, industrial skills are obtained from Vocational Training Colleges which used to be called: “village polytechnics” which were very important. However, we have those who get on-the-job training. Some of the best masons that we have never went to any college or training centre. It is from the on-the-job training that they get skills to put up best houses in rural areas that can withstand any tests that may be applied to them.

So, we want to know when we start colleges that today are called: “Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVETs)” and the campuses around them… I have the Tharaka Technical Training and Vocational College in my constituency which is going to give birth to two campuses, one at Gaciongo and another one at Maweni. Youngsters and the elderly go there to learn. We want, for example, the elderly who have prior training and want to learn masonry to have their experience considered. Whichever way the assessments will be done, their experience should be considered and given credit at the time of giving them certificates.

This Bill is very important and we must support it. We must know that training is not always formally obtained through formal education. On-the-job training is as important as formal training. Let us recognise it, accredit it, and give it the importance that it requires. That is why Hon. Oron has proposed that we amend Clause 3, which amends Section 3A of the main Act and Clause 4, which amends Section 5 of the main Act. By so doing, we will have the experience gained from informal training that has been obtained prior to formal training as part and parcel of what we recognise today. I support.

Let us have, Hon. Geoffrey Wandeto then followed by the Chair for Finance, Hon. Kimani Kuria in that order.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this very important Bill that is amending the Industrial Training Act. I want to also congratulate Hon. Oron for the foresight in bringing this Bill to the House. We all understand the importance of certification to people who are looking for jobs and participating in things like public tenders. Certification has become a hindrance over the years to thousands of artisans, tradesmen, and craftsmen out there. They cannot participate in the formal economy because of a lack of formal papers. So, this is a very important Bill.

I would like to speak to a few things for consideration by Hon. Oron before we go into the Third Reading of the Bill. I say this from experience because I had 150 artisans from my constituency who were certified recently and I can recall the experience I went through. First, we need to address the issue of cost. The National Industrial Training Authority charges what I would consider an expensive fee for certification. Were it not for the intervention that I had to make through NG-CDF, many of these artisans would never have obtained certification.

Second, we need a standard curriculum so that as learners join the TVETs for purposes of assessment and certification, we go beyond just assessing them for the trades they have learnt on the job. For example, a good plumber needs to learn entrepreneurship skills. Remember, he needs to go out and seek jobs from people. So, he needs to learn things like basic bookkeeping and how to write a small proposal. My suggestion is that, as NITA looks at operationalising that amendment, they should come up with a standard curriculum that will include other important aspects that will enable the tradesmen and craftsmen to navigate the world of work that they are being prepared for.

Centralising this thing under NITA will be a bottleneck. Of late, we have started certifying national polytechnics to set their own exams. We saw the bottlenecks that we faced when the Kenya National Examination Council was the body that certified everything. I propose that we expand this in a way that some of our universities and national polytechnics that have already been allowed to do their own examination can adopt a curriculum for certification of prior learning. That will accelerate the programme so that it is not left with NITA, which has its main office in Nairobi and very few offices in other places.

Can this proposal be also linked up with the TVETs so that they are allowed to do their own assessment and certification? A student can go to a TVET to enrol for recognition of prior learning, then the TVET forwards the student to NITA who can just come to conduct the examinations and issue a certificate. I also suggest that in the Bill, we clearly publish the list of trades and crafts that candidates will be recognised for prior learning. Just like Hon.

Mwashako said, there are things that we sometimes do not think about because they are very specific to certain areas of this country.

So, can we come up with an expanded list of the possible trades that we hope are certified? However, we need to be careful not to go through Dr Oundo’s route where he was almost insinuating that we should certify chang'aa brewers and things like that. So, things like witchcraft...

On a point of order.

No, let us hear first from Hon. Oundo because he has been mentioned.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, at no time did I ever talk about chang'aa brewers. In Funyula Constituency, we do not have chang'aa brewers, we only have brewers of enguri.

Thank you.

Hon. Oundo is very correct. He never pronounced himself on chang'aa. In fact, that is your story. You may proceed though.

On a point of order.

What is your point of order, Hon. Kiarie?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I had the privilege of being a student of Prof. David Maillu, who had a deep understanding of the sciences practised in Africa. Prof. Maillu was very clear about those things that we bastardise. Some of them were labelled as witchcraft and so on. This reflects a perspective often brought into Africa, where certain traditional practices are described as witchcraft, yet originally, they may not have been so defined.

Traditional medicine must be clearly distinguished from what falls within the realm of the occult, so that we do not dismiss or misrepresent scientific African practices as witchcraft. There is a place for specialised trades such as traditional medicine, which has evolved to the level we now describe as modern medicine. It should also be remembered that many sciences, including mathematics and engineering have origins in Africa. We are aware of developments in ancient Africa, in what was referred to as Egypt or Kemet, which was not confined to modern Egypt alone but was part of a broader African civilisation. The debate here concerns trades, and, indeed, some African traditional trades qualify for certification under NITA.

Thank you.

Very well. On this matter, you agree with Hon. Oundo. The contributions by the Member for Tetu are very good. You may proceed without mentioning names.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Maybe I should just say we certify trades that are lawful and beneficial to the country.

My other point is that at the end of certification, can we issue tradesmen and craftsmen not only with certificates but also with work identification cards that they can carry? For example, when a plumber comes to your house, he should produce proof that he is plumber, giving you confidence to allow him to work on your plumbing or electrical installations.

The final issue concerns the certification or advancement pathway for these tradesmen. Many have remained at their current level because there has been no structured avenue for advancing their knowledge. Now that we have opened the first door, once they receive their certificates, can we provide a curriculum that allows them to progress to diplomas, degrees and further advancement? In China, for example, individuals may obtain a PhD not by writing a lengthy dissertation but by demonstrating an actual invention. Some Chinese universities award doctoral degrees on the basis of tangible innovation. Many tradesmen are highly innovative.

Some may be more impactful than individuals who have written dissertations yet have not contributed practical solutions to the country.

I support the Bill and hope that Hon. Oron will consider these proposed amendments. As I have said, we are doing this in Tetu. We have already certified 150 people and hope to certify more once the process is further streamlined.

Thank you very much.

Before the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning contributes, I was seeking the attention of the owner of the Bill, Hon. Oron, regarding the list of trades and skills, which I have reviewed. It would be helpful to consider it further before the Third Reading. Let us now hear from the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Before making my contribution, I wish to commend the Member for Tetu, Hon. Wandeto, for his well-articulated and thoughtful contribution. He is a brilliant legislator. I hope the sponsor of the Bill will consider the points raised.

As I reflected on how to approach this matter, I asked myself: what is knowledge? To be a plumber or a mason requires knowledge in that field. Jean Piaget, writing between 1896 and 1980, identified different forms of knowledge. One is cognitive constructivism, which is knowledge acquired through active participation. By engaging directly in an activity, one becomes knowledgeable in that area.

During public participation in Baringo, I observed young people diving from great heights into a river. One of them had only one leg, yet an exceptional swimmer. Those young men have never attended formal swimming classes. Their knowledge was acquired through active participation, illustrating cognitive constructivism.

Another form is knowledge through assimilation. Children often acquire knowledge simply by observing others. The third is social constructivism, where knowledge is gained through association with others. This underscores the importance of the people with whom we interact, as we acquire knowledge through those social connections.

Howard Gardner’s theory of multiple intelligences, in 1963 further expanded this understanding. He identified various intelligences, including linguistic, spatial, bodily- kinesthetics, musical, interpersonal, and naturalistic. These forms of intelligence are acquired in different ways.

Having reflected on knowledge and intelligence, I considered who stands to benefit from this Bill. In my constituency, there is a man from Elburgon known as Daggy. He is one of the finest painters and designers in his town, though he has never attended college. There is Kinyanjui, who makes furniture in Molo Town. Wilfred Gaterre is an exceptional carpenter who produces remarkable chairs. Wainaina, a plumber in Elburgon, is highly skilled. On my farm, I have one of the best people, Jacob, who manages the dairy operations. He completed Form Four and learned on the job, yet he performs excellently. There is also Kavisa, who is deaf but is among the most competent workers on the farm. Mwanuri, a welder from Matumaini, produces outstanding work. These are the individuals who will benefit from this Bill. I hope this House will fast-track the recognition of prior learning, so that individuals who already possess skills are not required to return to class for extended periods to learn what they are already proficient in.

To enhance this process, rather than centralising examinations solely at NITA, could we adopt a model similar to the Certified Public Accountant system? There is one examining body, the Kenya Accountants and Secretaries National Examinations Board (KASNEB) , based in Nairobi, but examination centres are distributed across the country. There is a curriculum. If you want to go to class to study, you can go to any school offering accounting lessons. If you do not want to go to school or lack money to go to school like some of us, you can go through

the curriculum and sit for the exam. I independently studied to be a Certified Public Accountant (CPA). This creates fairness and access to this particular course.

Last year, I sponsored the Insurance Professionals Bill which is now the Insurance Professionals Act. We realised there was a bottleneck to professionalise the insurance sector. We only have one college of insurance based here in Nairobi. Therefore, a student from Molo or Turkana must come all the way here to sit for the exams. We proposed to have an examination body that sets the examinations, but open up these insurance courses to as many institutions as possible. This will ensure we have standardised insurance tests, but avail the course in any college across the country. I support that this should not be a function of one entity, but we open it to entities across the country. This means that people in Molo can go to the Technical and Vocational Education and Training (TVET) in Elburgon, especially now that we have TVETs in almost every constituency in Kenya. This will be one of the avenues to use them as examination centres. The National Industrial Training Authority (NITA) can set a standardised examination for everyone in that particular field, but they should be administered by different institutions across the country.

Hon. KJ raised a very valid point on traditional medicine. In my vernacular, we confuse andu ago or mundu mugo with murogi. Mundu mugo is a traditional doctor. Some illnesses that people suffer are psychological. That is why in modern medicine, we recognise a psychiatrist and psychologist. In our traditions, they were known as andu ago. However, the white man came and called them arogi which is now confused as witchcraft. Hon. Joshua Oron should add that to some of the certifications that can be recognised as prior learning because some play a very important role in our country.

Lastly, this Bill aligns very well with our Bottom-up Economic Transformation Agenda (BETA). We need to be very deliberate in creating jobs. You have seen the jobs that have been created through the housing projects across the country. For example, you saw the jobs that were created during the construction of the Talanta Sports Stadium which will be renamed Raila Odinga International Stadium and all other stadia that are being constructed across the country. The President commissioned another stadium in Wajir which will create jobs. The BETA is very deliberate about creating jobs. This Bill aligns with that agenda. If the people who will work in those housing projects lack certification, then watalipwa pesa kidogo pale kwa site. However, if they have certification as masons, carpenters and all other skilled labour, they will do well.

We also have to agree that not all of us will study law, accounting, or engineering. We need everyone who has a skill to join us in building the nation. Developed countries recognise these skills. Some people do white collar jobs in Kenya and then they relocate to the United States of America (USA) and United Kingdom (UK) to do technical jobs and they make a lot of money. We need to recognise the technical jobs here, grow them and create opportunities to ensure we are one prosperous nation and become Singapore.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Very well. All Members will get a chance to speak to this Bill. Hon. Samwel Moroto should take the Floor, followed by Hon. Oscar Nabulindo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I especially thank the Member of Parliament for bringing this before us. This is reflective of good thinking and working minds. If we are not careful to prepare well, support any Bill, and make a follow-up through oversight to ensure it works well, soon, this House will be a talking show. In fact, I have been following my colleagues’ contributions here and it reminds me of

what is happening in my village. West Pokot right now is like a beehive. Everybody is there because of gold mining. You will find that the locals are not working. The outsiders are pushing them aside saying they are not skilled to do this yet they were brought there like the professor said.

Mine is to support this Bill. Let us not just talk. Someone spoke a lot of English but we leave it here. We do not follow up. We are the law makers and the people out there are the true users. Sometimes, when the Executive and the other arm of Government see pressure coming, they divide us here and take to a corner. For instance, the professor talked about the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM). Where is it now? It is like tatters in just a few days. Where are the Kenya African National Union (KANU) and the Party of National Unity (PNU)? They are all gone and even this will go. It seems like all the parties in Kenya belong to an individual. When the founder goes, so does the party. Legislators have to be very careful. Our constituents have trusted us and brought us to this House. If you are young, you can bring all the experience you have. When we would take tea with Moi, not the tea you talk of, the young man there was acting as Kamotho in university and we would laugh. We should be serious and pass this and let the Committee in charge make a follow-up to ensure it is working on the ground.

I have a working TVET in a place called Kitelakapel but you find that when money is disbursed, some people misappropriate it. Where are the people who are supposed to oversight? Nevertheless, the institution is working well and I really thank the lecturers who work there. They have volunteered and they are doing very well. So, that is what I wanted to say.

On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Moroto, do you want to be informed by the Member for Dagoretti South?

Yes. Let me hear from this young man, but I will have to correct him later.

Okay, proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I would like to inform Hon. Moroto because that matter came to the Floor of the House when I was in university. Redykyulass was not just about jest-making. It was, indeed, agitation. Some of us had grown up in a time when there was clamour for the second liberation and while some chose to go to the streets, some of us university students decided to take up this activism in a way that could not be challenged with a hammer or a rungu. Being university students, we took the intellectual activism route. Redykyulass found itself on the Floor of this House severally but they were never able to corner us because it was proper activation by some very academic minds in university. I would like Mwalimu Moroto to know that it was not just about jest- making. It was, indeed, clamour for the second liberation through activism by students who at that time were redefining arts and comedy.

Hon. Moroto, you may continue.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I wish to inform him that it was a drama. That is why we enjoyed the music you produced. Sincerely, I appreciate the efforts of the House, but let us put more emphasis on ensuring that whatever we pass here is effective.

I support.

Very well. Hon. KJ, you should read the works of three philosophers on the French Revolution: Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Voltaire and Montesquieu. However, I believe the role played at that time was primarily that of Voltaire. Check out Voltaire.

Let us hear from Hon. Nabulindo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this chance to express my views on this Bill. First and foremost, I support the Industrial Training Amendment Bill proposed by the Member for Kisumu. It is timely as it addresses the challenges we currently face.

In our communities, a majority of young people are unable to access formal training in our institutions. Consequently, these individuals often attach themselves to their older brothers, uncles, relatives, fathers, or even neighbours to learn practical skills. Many of them acquire various technical skills without formal education. Unfortunately, society, employers, or any institutions that value skills do not recognise them even though in a real sense, the skills that these young people acquire move society in many aspects.

I would like to give you an example I witnessed first-hand. My grandmother's house was built by a man who had never attended school, not even for a single day. It was one of the strongest houses ever constructed in that village, standing firm for over 40 years regardless of wind or sunshine, and it was made of bricks. That man had never set foot in a classroom. Regrettably, such skills remain unacknowledged within the village. Therefore, this Bill is important in urging the Government to recognise all skilled individuals in the villages who contribute greatly but lack formal education. That man was named Lactari. He was a very good fundi.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, that is not only about technical jobs or manual skills. It also pertains to health matters. In many villages, women do not give birth in hospitals. Instead, they deliver at home, assisted by traditional midwives. Some of the midwives have never received any formal training yet they often perform far better than midwives in our general hospitals. One such lady existed in my village. Her name was Apoma. She passed away some time ago, but she safely facilitated the births of thousands of children in the village. Unfortunately, such efforts are neither recognised by the Government or by the institutions that are supposed to.

We also have other technical health jobs that ‘doctors’ in the village do, but they are not recognised. If you come from Western Kenya, you know that there is something called “evil eye”. If they look at you, they put bones and other items in your body, and after a few days you experience extreme headache. Once you go to a ‘doctor’ in the village, they will remove those things and you get well, yet they are not recognised by our system. We were tuned by the colonialists to believe that their system is better. Our system is always considered negative, dark or associated with witchcraft. Therefore, as the Bill proposes, we need to recognise the people who have had on-the-job training in the villages through formal certifications so that they expand their mandate on what they do.

I am happy for what is happening in TVET centres and at NITA. I took the initiative of enrolling some of our students in TVETS and NITA in Matuga. Almost 4,000 students who applied to go for the training already had the skills on what they were going to be trained on. Masons were already practising masonry; carpenters were already practising carpentry; and those taking plumbing were already plumbers. They just wanted it to be certified. Instead of wasting money retraining such a person, it would be best to give the person a test, and if they pass, they get certified and recognised as professionals.

Lastly, it is no secret that most young people in the country have resorted to jua kali due to a lack of job opportunities in the country. There are no jobs in this country. Many young people rely on the jua kali industry to sustain themselves. They get trained by a person who already has the skills and learn on the job. For instance, no college teaches people how to do carwash jobs, but they do the job and earn a living. It is actually a very big business, especially in Nairobi, yet they are not recognised. They work until they get tired of the job and look for something else to do.

I support this Bill. I thank the Hon. Member for bringing this Bill. It is timely. It is going to make most of our young people relevant in the modern society in terms of career and job creation.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Let us have Hon. Jematiah and then Hon. Eric Muchangi, in that order.

We will all get a chance to speak on this debate. Proceed, Hon. Jematiah.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also want to thank Hon. Oron. I also believe he is the future Governor of Kisumu.

This Bill is timely because we are living at a time where we are almost forgetting what it means to have an original product. If you want to reinvent a product, you look for the original product. This amendment will enable this country to get real results, specifically on handwork skills and development of people’s talents not just amongst the youth but across all age sets. In fact, the people who are more talented are the old people. It is just because in Africa, we do not tell our story through writing but story telling. We give information through socialisation.

They are called oral traditions.

Yes, oral traditions. We are soon growing old and we need to tap into their knowledge. The pyramids in Egypt, for example, have never been duplicated in the world. The Europeans have tried. They were built by the blacks from the Kingdom of Kush from Sudan. In fact, the highest number of pyramids is found in Sudan. It is only that the Egyptians have marketed their pyramids more.

In Sudan, you will witness a lot of industrialisation. The originality of industry, development and modernisation takes us back to the Kingdom of Kush. Some traditional houses in Africa are shaped like the pyramids.

In midwifery, just like Hon. Nabulindo has said, anyone who is 50 years and above most likely was born through the assistance of a midwife. These are highly skilled women who can deliver babies without any issue or the need for a caesarean section (C-section) . Nowadays, most children are born through C-sections because people want short cuts without wanting to know the reasons behind it or gaining the traditional skills of child bearing.

We have herbalists who would work hand in hand with these midwives. They would know the exact concoction of herbs to give the young mothers when delivering and even after delivery. The mothers would give birth to very healthy babies. They would nurture the baby and give the mother massages. They would know how to take care of the baby from the first day of delivery up to when the baby starts sitting up. They were highly skilled yet nowadays that is referred to as Artificial Intelligence (AI) . Those are traditional skills.

There were aunties who would know when a small girl is pregnant without necessarily taking them to the doctor. They would detect that the girl is pregnant and tell the mother or the grandmother what foods to give her and how to take care of her. These are skills that were transferred to us. It is very important that we consider them. I request Hon. Oron to add the non-tangible skills.

For instance, we used to have chiropractors in our village. These chiropractors would know where to touch when you broke your leg or when limping after spraining your leg. You did not have to go all the way to hospital. They knew where to touch and they would oil it a bit and give you a good press and you would be well.

This is a very timely Bill. For instance, someone said that we do not have jobs and therefore we need the jua kali sector. Those are the real jobs. I was telling Hon. John Kiarie, KJ, that China, where we go to borrow loans, their economy was built by the people we call

jua kali in Kenya. In fact, we hype some jobs like secretary in an office. Such a person may be employed at 24 years of age for instance. Their job entails sitting in an office for many hours. They wake up at 5.00 a.m. to be at work by 8.00 a.m. and go home at 5.00 p.m. Such an employee gets a salary at the end of the month while a jua kali person earns money every day, even if it is a small amount, in our consideration. However, it is money that can feed and take care of their families.

We should not take Jua Kali for granted. These people are richer than most of us seated here. While we wait for a salary, they earn theirs every day. We should empower them with informal skills. If you go to areas like Kisumu or the lake region, the Jua Kali young men and women are very good at their craft. When you look at what they display by the roadside, you acknowledge that they are skilled. Whenever I visit Kisumu, Homabay or Siaya, I see the skills they have. These are people who should be given certificates and recognised up to the national level. Instead of us going to China to import things like beds, we need to empower such people every day. We have them in markets, at Ngong Road and all over Nairobi. If we recognise them and buy their products, we will make this country better than Singapore. As much as we want to be like Singapore, we must be disciplined and understand that what we have is more important than what others have.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I also want to look at traditions and survival tactics. We used to have foreseers who could foresee danger before it struck. In the Turgen subtribe of the Kalenjin, they could slaughter a goat and know if there was an upcoming danger, like drought or heavy rains. They interpreted nature. We also need to consider such people. This is because if we do not consider them, who will? We should seize the opportunity that this Bill has presented to us and not brush them off as witches. Witches use superpowers. When men grow old, they are called wise but when women grow old, they are called witches because they are spiritual and understand this thing better.

I would like to tell Hon. Oron that this is a timely Bill and we support it. I will wait for the Committee of the whole House, when we will contribute more to it through appropriate amendments and make it a functional legislation for this country.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Oron, the list of trades and skills keep recurring. Let us hear from Hon. Eric Muchangi and then Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. At the outset, I support this Bill by Hon. Joshua Oron. I recall when I was Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Labour, Hon. Oron used to come to me and tell me that he had a Bill which he wanted to sponsor. This is it. He has been very consistent, of course inspired by the aspirations of his people, especially the young people in Kisumu and all over the country who have acquired skills informally. I term this Bill progressive because it will give young people opportunity. It will give opportunity to those who did not go to formal schools to get certification. This is because many have lacked jobs and missed opportunities just for lack of certification. It is not that they do not know the job, or that they do not have the skills. Because they did not go through formal training, they have missed very many opportunities. This Bill is seeking to cure this oversight.

The Bill also seeks to empower NITA to organize for assessment and certification of such persons. I believe this is progressive because NITA has over the years proven to be an institution that is capable of doing this. I believe this is very timely because it will offer many more opportunities to the young people.

I was once troubled with a car that had developed a mechanical problem that became very difficult for many mechanics to deal with. Then one young man called Karanja, aged about 25, came and fixed it to the amazement of several qualified mechanics. I sought to understand how Karanja understood how to deal with cars. He told me that everybody in their family,

including his father and brothers were mechanics. Basically, everyone in their family is a mechanic. He has, therefore, learned the art and the skills through the exposure that he has gotten over the years seeing his father and brothers do the job. Right now, the young man is doing very well. He is always busy. If such people get certification, they can formally grab the opportunities that come up. They can even go beyond the borders and work outside the country. Some shy away from going to places far away because they have no documentation to show. This Bill will cure that. I believe it is a progressive Bill. I thank Hon. Oron for this thought.

While still at this, it is also good to think about the many young people who have studied different courses, including education. This country has made a lot of effort to employ as many teachers as possible, but you will agree with me that we still have very many unemployed teachers from our constituencies. You ask…

They are, indeed, very many.

Yes. Thank you. You and I are teachers. We have to defend the rights of Kenyans and these teachers who are not yet employed. I have met teachers who are almost attaining retirement age and are not yet employed. Every time they come to me telling me their problems, I feel for them. I wonder why the Commission for University Education (CUE) cannot inform the Ministry of Education and the Government of Kenya which courses to train on. I imagine perhaps some of those people pursued education without information and did not know that they would wait for so long. If they had such information from CUE by the time they were joining college, perhaps they would have considered doing other courses.

Therefore, as you deal with this Bill by Hon. Joshua Oron, CUE and the Ministry of Education should also work hard to inform the country, especially the young people who are leaving high schools, on which courses they should take. This will ensure that upon graduation they are able to work and employ themselves for the betterment of this country.

Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Member. Most of those teachers are P1 teachers. Some of them are almost reaching retirement age. We also have 20,000 on internship.

Let us now hear from Hon. Didmus Barasa.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I support the Bill. Firstly, public policy or legislation come to solve a public problem. It takes an intelligent man with grassroots connections to identify such problems and propose legislation to cure them. One such person is Dr Oron. He is well grounded from the grassroots. He understands that the problem exists: That very many Kenyans have skills that have not been recognised through issuance of certificates. May God bless you, Hon. Joshua Oron. The people of Kisumu County are privileged to have you.

Ninety-eight per cent of Kenyans who have vehicles take their vehicles for repairs to persons without certification. A majority of the Kenyans who fix those vehicles, from diagnosing where the problem is to fixing it, do not have any certification. Most people who drive the industrial sector in our country, especially plant operators, do not have certificates. They went through a process called on-the-job training or apprenticeship programmes.

I challenge the sponsor of this important Bill, Hon. Oron. Consider repealing the Education Acts of our country and the laws that compel award of degrees and diplomas only to universities. Let them consider that an individual can get a diploma or a degree through class training or by validating his or her relevant industrial experience.

I want to give you an example. Even in this House, the University of Nairobi should consider the experience of Hon. Oscar Sudi and award him a degree in Public Administration or Political Science.

The law must begin to recognise the skills and talent that these people have. We should even go ahead and say that when you have recognised skills, and you want to do a diploma, you do not have to spend three years in university. They should design a crash programme for you.

Lastly, junior secondary school teachers claim that because they are university graduates, they cannot be headed by P1 teachers. I want to tell them that the P1 headmaster has been teaching for more than 20 or 25 years. In fact, if we were in Europe, those headmasters would be given a master’s degree in a relevant field.

Very well. There seems to be no further interest on this debate. Hon. Mwirigi, I cannot see you on the list. I can see you in person, but I cannot see you on the screen. Proceed to contribute, Hon. Mwirigi.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support this Bill sponsored by my good friend, Hon. Oron. The informal sector has been around for a long time without being recognised for its expertise. Hon. Oron intends to create an opportunity for their skills to be recognised. If one lacks a certificate, you are paid very low wages despite the fact that you are highly skilled and you can work more comfortably than a formally educated individual.

The Bill will expand the work of NITA. It will create a pathway for certifying deserving practitioners in the informal sector so that such individuals are not disadvantaged when they seek employment. This sector will be empowered since about 80 per cent of Kenyans work in the informal sector. Those who normally work there are viewed as unskilled. However, their work makes them seem like experts. Giving them an opportunity to be certified will go a long way in growing our economy.

It will also instil confidence in consumers regarding the informal sector. For example, some people do not recognise those who work in the Jua Kali sector because they lack certificates, yet they are experts. Certification will open up opportunities outside the country for those in the informal sector and they will be comfortable working in any part of the world.

Certification will also open up the TVET Institutes since the Government is encouraging people to take up TVET courses. Those who are disadvantaged or who come from very poor backgrounds but have skills will obtain certification. They will in turn be encouraged to work anywhere in the country. The Bill will also reduce skills mismatch because some industries employ people whom they have to train because they lack the requisite capacity and skills to perform their duties.

However, with certification, it will give the employing company confidence and the company will not incur other expenses in training these people once again. This will strengthen social equity amongst these people because skills matter more than academic background. For example, in the mechanical sector, we have some villages which are remote and there is nobody who has undertaken any formal training but you still find people doing mechanical jobs within those areas. That means they have the skills. What they lack is only the certificate. This Bill will cure this problem. It will bring this working field to a level where each and every Kenyan will be comfortable to work without being discriminated.

With those few remarks, I beg to support.

Great. I, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to reply. As you can see, the Bill is very rich. It is rich in responses, in contributions and also in the impact that it will have on the lives of many Kenyans. This Bill is an equaliser in education for many young, middle aged and even older Kenyans.

Hon. Oron, as you reply, you may spare a minute for Hon. Mary Emaase. She will appreciate.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Can I give the Hon. Member a chance to contribute first then I continue?

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, and thank you Hon. Joshua. I rise to support this Bill. There are young people in this country whose parents could not raise school fees to enrol them in colleges but they have learnt and acquired some skills through some professionals over a period time. Most of these young people are qualified fundis today doing a lot of work in the construction sector, amongst many other sectors. Once we approve this Bill, such young Kenyans will be recognised and get certification that will enable them to seek opportunities within and without this country. Therefore, this is a very good Bill. It is a legislation we must support since it will go a long way in creating more opportunities for the young people who have skills yet they cannot be recognised. When they go to construction sites, they are asked to show their certification. They claim to be fundis but they have nothing to show for the skills they have acquired over time.

Therefore, I support this Bill.

You may proceed, Hon. Oron.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As I said, this Bill is a game changer. It provides a pathway for many young people, middle-aged persons and older Kenyans who have acquired skills over time but are stuck in specific jobs and positions. It will enable them to progress.

This Bill was in the manifestos of Azimio la Umoja One Kenya Coalition Party and the Kenya Kwanza Alliance. His Excellency the President speaks to this Bill on a day-to-day basis. Every time I see him at the National Youth Opportunities Towards Advancement (NYOTA) functions, he speaks to it but it has never been in operation.

My first thought of this Bill came from being on the ground. I have the most jua kali artisans in my constituency. When you talk to young people, you find that what they have between them and that job is an overall and a mechanical tool box. When there are job opportunities, they cannot apply for any of them because they do not have a certificate. The other thought about this Bill is the fact that when it is being operationalised, it should not be expensive to the Jua Kali artisans or anybody else.

Those people applying to have their prior learning accredited should be assessed at their workplaces. They do not have to go to a technical institution to be assessed. Why should they go to be assessed at a technical institution, yet they have learnt the job where they work? The people who taught them the job are already there. If we make this particular Bill expensive to Kenyans, it will be sad.

Many Members have spoken on the list of specific sectors that need to be included in this Bill. It is endless. Think of somebody who is very good at cooking. When they look for a job in a hotel, they are asked where they learnt to cook and whether they have certificates. You also find a traditional birth attendant who has supported many deliveries in the village looking for a job as a community health worker and she is asked about certification. This Bill is a game changer that will change the lives of many Kenyans.

I will pick a few of the sectors that this Bill will have an impact on. Plumbing is one of them. Many of our homes require plumbing. Many of the fundis we call upon to work in our homesteads do not have certificates yet they do good jobs for us. The passage of this Bill will enable these people to have another pathway other than self-employment. They can get employment in established industries or sectors. We have carpentry, bodywork in mechanical work or Jua Kali, painters, motor vehicle mechanics, food and beverage, barbers and salonists. These are people who are trained behind the shops. They have skills. With proper

certification, they can be employed and do a good job. This Bill is a game-changer. This Bill speaks to the hustlers of this country. This Bill will change the lives of many.

Before I conclude, allow me to donate two or three minutes to Hon. Sabina Chege to contribute.

Very well, Hon. Sabina.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I want to sincerely congratulate Hon. Joshua Odongo Oron for this well-thought-out Bill. I am a teacher by profession. I have taught in high schools, served as the Woman Representative for Murang’a County for two consecutive terms, and chaired the Departmental Committee on Education. I have just come from Mathioya Constituency in Murang’a County, where I was interacting with young people.

We were launching the affordable housing programme yet many of the beneficiaries of the programme are people who would say they have skills. We know that in the villages, there are persons who are known as very good carpenters but if you ask for their certificates, they do not have. There is one person who is known as a very good mechanic but when you ask for the certificate, he does not have one. Gradually, these people have grown and earned skills. They can actually become trainers themselves.

We have very good plumbers. We also have very good people skilled in electrical work, and I know that majority of the Members in this House can mention one or two such people in their villages. These people are learned and skilled but they do not have certificates. So, once prior learning is recognised, there will be a sense of pride among them.

When I became the Woman Representative for Murang’a County, I started tapping into these talents. We had a very good working relationship with Michuki Technical Training Institute, which is now a national polytechnic. I could take young people from the villages and enrol them in short courses of even one month, where they would be retrained and their skills tested. I saw the joy of someone who either did not finish school or whose only certificate was a birth certificate. On graduation day, the parents were happy. Lives were changing. Within a month, you could see their confidence boosted.

Now the Kenya Kwanza Government has many projects. Some people say that we should not send our people outside the country but we know that they have skills that can enable them to work abroad, earn income and support their families. If we give them certification, they will be competitive and will not be exploited when they go out there because they will have proper certification.

I support and congratulate Hon. Joshua. Well done! I support this Bill. This is the way to go. When we tell our people that we come to this House to represent them, we do not have to go outside and make noise about what the Government is not doing. We have the capacity to change the lives of Kenyans in this House, not through politicking outside.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, and thank you for giving me the opportunity, Hon. Oron.

Hon. Oron, you must conclude in the next one minute.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, in conclusion, I want to encourage Members that when this Bill comes up in the Committee of the whole House, we give it full support so that we see its logical conclusion. Let us see these amendments entrenched in law so that many Kenyans can benefit from it.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I kindly request that you put the question so that we conclude this phase of the Bill.

I beg to reply.

Hon. Oron, well done. I also thank Members who have spoken to the Bill. Your Bill is very rich. It attracted a lot of very

good contributions. We shall put the question in the next sitting. As you can see, we are already at 19:00 Hours.

Hon. Members, be upstanding.

Hon. Members, the time being 7:00 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 17th February 2026 at 2.30 p.m.

Published by Clerk of the National Assembly