Moses Masika Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Sen. (Laughter)

Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think you had made an earlier ruling on a Motion for Adjournment and said that the Debate would start any time from (Laughter)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think you had made an earlier ruling on a Motion for Adjournment and said that the Debate would start any time from

Sen. Wako, you are definitely not in Order! You need not to remind the Chair of its own ruling. That is what I was about to decree, but let me dispose of the request by Sen. (Dr.) Machage and also to remind Senators that there is no harm if a...

Having said so, we will suspend this business to proceed with the main Motion tomorrow then we will take the Motion of Adjournment as earlier sought by Sen. Murkomen. MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER NO.33 PARALYSIS OF COUNTY ASSEMBLY SITTINGS OVER SALARY DEMANDS

Sen. Wetangula) :[The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Lesuuda) left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Ongoro) took the Chair] On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. This is a Motion that is likely to elicit a lot of interest from every Senator present. I want to request the Chair to...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Tell us more! Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for allowing me to inform you that further to what you have just said, and in rebuttal to the flawed arguments of Sen. Kagwe and Sen. Karaba, universities are also very major economic entities if you cite cases of...

Thank you, Sen. Wetangula for informing me. In fact, just to emphasise what the distinguished hon. Senator from Bungoma County is saying, if you imagine a town like Kakamega with ten thousand students, assuming that every student spends Kshs500 per day to eat, drink, brush his or her teeth, to...

Sen. Wetangula): Sen. Wetangula):Sen. Wetangula argued that the Chair should have involved Standing Order No.68(1) of the Standing Orders of the National Assembly of the Tenth Parliament, which provided that:-“In every instance where the Constitution lays down a fixed majority, it is necessary to decide on any question, the House...

There are more five hon. Senators in support of this. It seems all hon. Senators present have stood up in support of this Motion. So, you satisfy the requirements. Hon. Senators, you may resume your seats. This being a Wednesday, we will allocate time for this matter from 5.00 p.m....

Sen. Wetangula): Are there no contributors? Sen. Haji!

Sen. Wetangula) : It is definitely not in order and I ruled as such. My ruling on the request for adjournment by Sen. Orengo is that the Motion has been proposed and Sen. Orengo knows how to propose adjournments, if he wishes, but he did not do so. Really, it...

No, you cannot. Sen. Wetangula, resume your seat. It is my job to ensure there is orderly conduct in this House.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

And better be a real point of order.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the CORD Coalition Senators to meddle with the affairs of the Jubilee Coalition? Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was not nominated to that Committee by the CORD Coalition. Why are they agitated? What is their business with it?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Are there no contributors? Sen. Haji!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, apparently I do not know whether the rules of the Senate are different from those of the National Assembly because people are standing on points of order but instead making points of argument. Is it in order, really?

It is definitely not in order and I ruled as such. My ruling on the request for adjournment by Sen. Orengo is that the Motion has been proposed and Sen. Orengo knows how to propose adjournments, if he wishes, but he did not do so. Really, it is not up...

You denied me to proceed.

I did not deny you; you just used the wrong vehicle.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. The House is governed--- The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, according to Standing Order No.97 (1) – I shall read it so that it is clear from the outset that it is a proper point of...

Order! Let us listen to Sen. Wetangula and if you want to inform him, he must agree to be informed. May 8, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula):Mr. Speaker, Sir, I second the Motion and I want to urge the House to take emotions out of this. The reasons advanced by Sen. Orengo are very noble and very important. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must accept the information, but I do not need it.An hon. Senator who...

May 8, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

The Motion before this House is about the appointment of two Senators to two different committees. The Motion is to debate the appointment of Sen. Elachi and Sen. Bule to the respective committees that have been mentioned. Otherwise the removal of any Senator is not a matter that should be...

Order, hon. Senators! There is enough time for everybody to contribute. I want to entertain contributions. You will still make your points; just note them down and you will prosecute them. ADJOURNMENT OF DEBATE UNDER STANDING ORDER NO.97

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : I have another point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have not even responded to his point of order. What is to replace an hon. Senator?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Senator for Mandera County! You raised your point of order. May 8, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

I have another point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Kerrow?

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order!

Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With all due respect, what we are seeing at play now is the lack of previous experience. Is the hon. Senator for Meru in order to mislead the House about the removal of my name and why it cannot...

Order, Senators! Indeed, the Motion is seeking to bring in two Members to the respective Committees. However, it is equally true, to some extent that the basis of that replacement, which is indicated in the Motion, is to replace. So, in a way, it is in order for the Senator...

Sen. Wetangula): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We are listening carefully but is the hon. Senator in order to try to belittle regional balancing as a fact that should be taken in place when constituting committees?

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would not therefore wish to dwell further on the difference between ethnicity and regionalism. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what offended me most as a believer in democracy is that Sen. Wako in the presence of the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Wako, called me and...

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose this Motion. I want to start by thanking the Senate Leader of the Majority for putting my name, in the first place, in these committees. For the benefit of this House and the entire country, I never, ever, approached the Senate...

fact. I would like it to be abundantly clear that I hold all the Senators with immense respect and I have no doubt that anyone of them can serve in this Committee. I would be the first person to vote for Sen. Beatrice to be, not just in this Committee...

has been invited in the House of Commons to address chairs of PAC of Commonwealth countries as a facilitator. I have also been invited to the Republic of South Sudan for the same reason. I have been invited to Rwanda again for the same reason. I hope I am not...

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order is about relevance.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very relevant. It is this experience that I use to persuade, beg and cajole colleague Senators to see the value of me being the Chair of the Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs Committee. I am not in any way demeaning you. This particular one of...

Sen. Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula) : You recall in the morning we deferred the matter on the vote on the Motion by the Senator for Kakamega, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale - the Motion on Education – to this afternoon at 3.30 p.m. According to the clock on my wall, it is now 4.14 p.m....

Order, Senators! While I appreciate that the Senator for Bungoma wants to aspire to the same level of the late hon. Martin Shikuku of being a stickler to rules and reminding the Chair consistently, on this particular one, it is alphabetical. Where you have the ranking is on the first...

May 8, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Hassan Omar Hassan Sen. Gerald Otieno Kajwang Sen. Kanainza Nyongesa Daisy Sen. Dickson Daniel Karaba Sen. G.G. Kariuki Sen. Charles Cheruiyot Keter Sen. Bonny Khalwale Sen. George Khaniri Sen. Paul Kimani Njoroge “Wamatangi” Sen. Kithure Kindiki Sen. Mike Sonko Mbuvi Kioko Sen. Harold Kipchumba Kimuge Sen. Kisasa Mshenga Mvita

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :I was saying that the location of a college does not necessarily determine who is going to attend that college. As we well know, for example, Kimathi University in Nyeri has students from all over this country. I presume the universities that are going to...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I meant universities in Nairobi and they are many; not one. Even so, it is indeed the University of Nairobi where Sen. Wetangula and I went to school. Thank you very much. May 7, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This Senate is now building its own practice and traditions. You just said that you have named tellers for the Jubilee Coalition and for the CORD Coalition. Probably, you want to think about this. Some of us think that...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is on the same line, but with a different angle to it and to support what Sen. Wetangula has stated. We are dealing with a situation which is new to the jurisprudence of this...

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to give another angle to the issue raised by Sen. Wetangula and Sen. Kajwang. There is a lot of jurisprudential value in what Sen. Wetangula was requesting you to make a decision on, particularly when it comes to the importance in...

of the delegations. Otherwise, it becomes an exercise in futility because we went to vote knowing – the Clerk and his team should have guided us – that, in fact, we did not qualify to vote at the time we voted because we did not have the requisite numbers.Mr. Deputy...

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is on the same line, but with a different angle to it and to support what Sen. Wetangula has stated. We are dealing with a situation which is new to the jurisprudence of this House on matters of voting. It...

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In view of the fact that we find ourselves in this quagmire, is it really in order for us to expect the Chair to play May 7, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Hon. Wetangula Hon. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the Motion. One of the core functions of the Government is to provide security to its citizens. Any Government that cannot do that has no business being in power. Why are we paying the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS) so much...

Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it possible for the Chair to save us from this morass of confusion from the Majority side of the House? They do not seem to know what and who they represent!...

What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Kiraitu?

Sen. Wetangula) : When you talk about the one for May, which document are you referring to? Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a learning process and we should ask the Clerk to avoid repeating this in future. If the second one-page Order Paper was supposed to be supplementary, it should...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have served in the House Business Committee for five years and I am aware that when a matter is brought to the House Business Committee and is balloted, it does not always find itself to the House. The point raised by hon. Wetangula is very important...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there seems to be a lot of confusion here. As my colleague, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale said, we used to be together in the House Business Committee. The two papers that have been produced here are one; the programme of the Senate for the week. If you look...

When you talk about the one for May, which document are you referring to?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are two documents. There is one single piece of paper showing the order of the day and another one which has the programme of the Senate.

That one is called the Programme of Senate Business.

Exactly! That is where the confusion is coming in because the second piece of paper starts with issues relating to 2nd May, 2013. This is just a clarification.

Order, hon. Senators! I think you should be having two documents. One is the document that Sen. (Dr.) Machage brought to the Table, which is the Programme of Senate Business. That is the one that on page four has a list of committees and their schedules on the elections of...

Sen. Wetangula):

Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it possible for the Chair to save us from this morass of confusion from the Majority side of the House? They do not seem to know what and who they represent!...

What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Kiraitu?

Sen. Wetangula) : When you talk about the one for May, which document are you referring to? Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a learning process and we should ask the Clerk to avoid repeating this in future. If the second one-page Order Paper was supposed to be supplementary, it should...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have served in the House Business Committee for five years and I am aware that when a matter is brought to the House Business Committee and is balloted, it does not always find itself to the House. The point raised by hon. Wetangula is very important...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there seems to be a lot of confusion here. As my colleague, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale said, we used to be together in the House Business Committee. The two papers that have been produced here are one; the programme of the Senate for the week. If you look...

When you talk about the one for May, which document are you referring to?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are two documents. There is one single piece of paper showing the order of the day and another one which has the programme of the Senate.

That one is called the Programme of Senate Business.

Exactly! That is where the confusion is coming in because the second piece of paper starts with issues relating to 2nd May, 2013. This is just a clarification.

Order, hon. Senators! I think you should be having two documents. One is the document that Sen. (Dr.) Machage brought to the Table, which is the Programme of Senate Business. That is the one that on page four has a list of committees and their schedules on the elections of...

Sen. Wetangula):

Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader (Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it possible for the Chair to save us from this morass of confusion from the Majority side of the House? They do not seem to know what and who they represent!...

What is it, Sen. Wetangula? The Senate Minority Leader ( Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : What is it, Sen. Kiraitu?

Sen. Wetangula): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. As far as the issue of the elections of Chairpersons of Committees is concerned, that is a house keeping matter which is straightforward and I support. I would like to use this opportunity on my behalf, on behalf of...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, everybody in this country knows that we have lost a great man. Mutula never hesitated to speak his mind even on matters he knew would ruffle feathers or were touching on the high and mighty. In a country where we are bedeviled with hypocrisy and people engaging...

Hon. Senators, we will limit this debate to five minutes per contributor to allow everybody to contribute. Although that request came from Sen. Wetangula who had just finished his contribution, usually you are not allowed to make a recommendation especially when you have done your bit.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. As far as the issue of the elections of Chairpersons of Committees is concerned, that is a house keeping matter which is straightforward and I support. I would like to use this opportunity on my behalf, on behalf of my family...

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thank you for the opportunity. I think you gave me the chance to speak at the right time because if there is one person April 30, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

who knew Mutula, a close friend of his, who understood him very well, I do not think I would have been the tenth one; I would have been between number one and five.Mr. Speaker, Sir, what happened – I wish to say this with a lot of pain – on...

I want to caution Kenyans that truly; if we want to build one Kenya, to build one nation and to become brothers and sisters, we must stop taking issues on tribal basis. Let us not divide this country on tribal lines.The General Election was concluded. We know what went wrong...

Your time is up!

Sen. Mutula, rest in peace! The Nominated Senator (

Bw. Spika, Waheshimiwa Maseneta wenzangu, nina masikitiko kwa sababu ni mara yangu ya kwanza kusimama mbele yenu na ninasimama kwa ajili ya rambirambi za kifo. Sikutarajia kusimama hapa mara yangu ya kwanza kutoa rambirambi. Ningependa kutoa rambirambi zangu kwa familia ya marehemu kutoka kwa familia yangu na watu wote wa...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (Sen. Kipchumba) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In...

Order, hon. Senators! Since I do not see any interest in this Procedural Motion, I will now put the question. (Question put and agreed to) Next Order! THANKS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS April 24, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (Sen. Kipchumba) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In...

Order, hon. Senators! Since I do not see any interest in this Procedural Motion, I will now put the question. (Question put and agreed to) Next Order! April 24, 2013 SENATE DEBATES THANKS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS

Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (Sen. Kipchumba) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In...

Order, hon. Senators! Since I do not see any interest in this Procedural Motion, I will now put the question. (Question put and agreed to) Next Order! April 24, 2013 SENATE DEBATES THANKS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS

Hon. Senators, yesterday, when debate on this Motion was interrupted, Sen. Kipchumba was contributing. He has a balance of 11 minutes, although yesterday we told him ten minutes. Sen. Kipchumba, you have 11 minutes. Proceed. The Nominated Senator (

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Minority Leader in order to imply that only one region of this country has roads when he knows very well April 23, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula):in Nairobi; I expected the President to come with a clean broom and say: “Criminals are put on notice and my Government is going to make sure that for us to embrace a 24-hour economy, like Uganda”---If you go to Kampala, shops are open from morning to morning. There...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : Order, Senator Hasssan! You are just confirming Sen. Murungi’s sentiments. When you request for a point of information, he has to allow you to inform him. So, since he has declined, the Chair cannot help you much. April 23, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula) :Tulipaa juu ya Mto Athi, na tukiwa juu aliniuliza: Je, unafikiri kutatua tatizo la maji katika taifa letu na hasa sehemu za Ukambani na kuelekea Pwani ni nini? Nilimjibu kwamba kiini cha kutatua matatizo hayo ni kulinda Mto Athi na Mto Tana kwa sababu maji yanayopita pale kati...

Sen. Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula):

Sen. Wetangula): Sen. Wetangula):

Sen. Wetangula): Sen. Wetangula):

Sen.Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have been to Kakamega many times and the road to Kakamega was made many years before any road was made in Meru. Could the Senate Leader of Minority apologize to this House for giving misleading...

Sen. Wetangula) :poaching? Jumbos are being slaughtered daily. For the tourists, if you are told that in Maasai Mara or Tsavo, they are slaughtering Jumbos, you could very well be the victim yourself. This is undermining our economy. Where is the policy on this?Mr. Speaker, Sir, I heard very clearly...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula) : Order, Sen. Kajwang! Are you referring to Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapou? The Senator for Homa Bay County (Sen. Kajwang) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Tell them! The Senator for Kitui County (

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a role that the Senate has been given by this Constitution. I chose to talk about devolution because the recent events have not augured well to give us comfort that devolution is getting support of even the previous Government, and we are yet to see...

Last time in Parliament, we passed the National Government Co-ordination Act. When we did so, we were assured by the hon. Attorney-General of two things; first, that the County Commissioners and administrators envisaged in that Act were not meant to undermine devolution. They were not meant to undermine Governors and...

Sen. Wetangula): Sen. Wetangula):

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Sen.Wetangula

Sen.Wetangula

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say the following. Although there has been no justification either by the Leader of the Majority Party or the Leader of the Minority Party why this Procedural Motion is being moved, it is self-evident. However, as a matter of fact, we...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say the following. Although there has been no justification either by the Leader of the Majority Party or the Leader of the Minority Party why this Procedural Motion is being moved, it is self-evident. However, as a matter of fact, we need to state...

Sen. Orengo, I thought that the Motion being procedural and people being clear on its contents, they found it unnecessary to explain the same thing.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, as I congratulate all of us for being here, I am particularly disappointed by the Leader of the Minority Party, Sen. Wetangula. He should have used this opportunity to teach the Leader of the Majority Party that this is not just about reading a Motion to...

Senate Majority Leader! Senator Kindiki, I hope you have heard contributions from Senators and this is the opportunity to do the needful.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is Sen. Kajwang from Homa Bay. We heard the speech from the President yesterday. It was a good, eloquent made and covers many areas from governance, education---

Order, Sen. Kajwang! On which Motion are you?

I am on a point of order.

Okay. April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion, in an amended form:- THAT, pursuant to Standing Order No.98 (1) the Senate resolves that the debate on any Motion for the adjournment of the Senate to a day other than the next normal sitting day...

Order, hon. Senators! The hon. Senator for Bungoma County is right on the issue of procedure, but he was not following the proceedings. We actually put the question on the amended Motion and no Senator was interested in making a contribution. In fact, the mood of the Floor, and from...

Yes,

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to second.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Senate Majority Leader and his colleague the Senate Minority Leader explain to the House the significance of the statement in the Procedural Motion “that the Senate shall adjourn without question put”? This means the House will not take any decision on the Motion.

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, that point of order cannot be duly sustained. You should have raised it when the Mover had the Floor. So, I will not carry it for now. You may wish to peruse the Standing Orders then you can appreciate so. Hon. Senators, I will now proceed to...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek your indulgence to move an amendment at this stage. As you said, being the first day, we are all in the learning process. Moreover, we have just received the Order Papers as we walked in here. April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Therefore, we did not have time to write the amendments to you. Do I have the permission to move the amendment?

Proceed, since we allowed the Senator for Busia!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am raising this point of order mainly because the amendment being moved is in contradiction of the Standing Orders. If you look at Standing Order No.28 (3) , it is fairly very clear that such amendments cannot be moved without the...

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, do you have anything to add?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am in the process of acquainting myself with these Standing Orders which we only received the other day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the same, I stand to second the Motion by Sen. Khaniri. We have had, in the past, situations where for one reason or the...

April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES PROCEDURAL MOTION LIMITATION OF DEBATE ON PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS

April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this particular Motion relates to the debate on the Presidential Address which, according to the Standing Orders, should take a maximum of three consecutive days uninterrupted. Of course, it could take shorter than three days so long as it is uninterrupted. So, the whole idea is to...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :to be the one moving and replying is also given another 20 minutes. So, I think we have cured that with the proposed amendments that he is bringing now, so that this is only applicable when it is another Senator and not the Majority Leader....

Sen. Wetangula): Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment is that we should put a full stop after the words “in either case” in line four. You will say; “Where the Mover is not a Senate Majority Leader or the Senate Minority Leader, they shall be limited to twenty minutes each.” That,...

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The Chair had started appreciating the excellent working relationship between the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader until just now. And since both of them call themselves learned friends and they are, I am sure they are also aware that that question has been determined by the Supreme...

Let me just explain so that we do not keep repeating the same thing. You need to appreciate that Standing Order No.24 (5) talks of whenever the President delivers an Address, a Senator may, as soon as practically thereafter”. Now that Senator happened to have been the Majority Leader this...

to be the one moving and replying is also given another 20 minutes. So, I think we have cured that with the proposed amendments that he is bringing now, so that this is only applicable when it is another Senator and not the Majority Leader. That is to make it...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was correct and all other people who opposed my proposal got it all wrong. I was very much conversant with that Standing Order and that is why I actually agree with the Motion in so far as it says the Mover in moving and replying shall...

He is perfectly in order because the Chair has granted him an opportunity to move his amendment. He is moving it by trying to explain some of the issues that arose from the Debate. (Sen.(Dr.) Machage interjected)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. (Dr.) Machage needs to read it very carefully.

In terms of procedure, you should move the amendment first.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment is that we should put a full stop after the words “in either case” in line four. You will say; “Where the Mover is not a Senate Majority Leader or the Senate Minority Leader, they shall be limited to twenty minutes each.” That, I think...

Sen. Amos Wako, I am sure that you do not want the Senator for Siaya and the Chair to withdraw the kind words they had put in for you. So, you need to do it properly. Move your amendment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that you put a full stop under after the words; “in either case” in line four.

Read the Motion as amended.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect to hon. Amos Wako whom I highly regard for his eloquence and competence, I feel that that completely changes the concept. You cannot put a full stop and proceed to use the word “and”. The way he read it will completely change it. Our...

in the House, any other Government representative could present. We may not alter this. For the purpose of convenience, the fact that the Standing Orders indicate the word “Senator” we may not have to change the entire concept by introducing wherever and so and so. This could be something that...

Mr. Speaker, Sir let me try to assist.

Are you seconding Sen. Wako?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not seconding. If we accept that the amended Motion is on the Floor, then I can contribute.

The amended Motion is not on the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe I could say what I wanted to say in assistance to the House in the way I am seeing the confusion coming. If we end at “either case” and put a full stop, we will have cured this problem. We are forcing the Majority Leader and...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we are verbalizing and contributing - because there is no Motion that has been proposed. We are just verbalizing our opinion on this. For the very reasons that were advanced by the hon. Senator for Mombasa, the Senator for Busia is absolutely right. I think it...

Mr. Speaker, you can guide us on this, but I am advising the Attorney-General to move a further amendment because it is properly before the House to leave out the word “Majority Leader” to reflect the objective situation in the House as it is at the moment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there is conflict here in the sense that tradition is conflicting with the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders are silent on the issues of Majority or the Minority Leader in the House. Since we are following the Standing Orders, since it remains silent on the...

Not all the time!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this will not happen all the time. Since it remains silent, we should allow it to pass. It would double the number of speeches if we used the word “Majority”. We should follow it the way it is stated here.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have two things. First, as hon. Senators are arguing on this matters, I think 90 per cent of us are already confused about what we are debating. This is because an amendment has been moved or may be it has not been moved. We are not...

Order, hon. Senators. I have been agonizing, just like you, on how to proceed and save the Members from torture. First, let me clarify that the Chair did not propose the Motion as amended because up to now, the Motion has not been seconded. The closest it came to secondment...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I move the Motion as read by the Speaker. That was my intention from the very beginning. I am glad the entire Senate now agrees with me. This is very important and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for bringing us together.

Seconder?

April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Senate Majority Leader, or the Senate Minority Leader, they shall be limited to 20 minutes each.”

Order, hon. Members! I am sure you have seen the Supplementary Order Paper. It is a product of the Rules and Business Committee. So, from this stage, we shall use the Supplementary Order Paper. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I would urge you to look at and raise your point of order...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion specifically because if you read Article 6 of the Constitution, it is very clear that counties are the second level of Government and, therefore, we have 48 governments in this country. In Article 96, it...

Governor Machage! My apologies. Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Machage!

Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion, in an amended form:- THAT, pursuant to Standing Order No.98 (1) the Senate resolves that the debate on any Motion for the adjournment of the Senate to a day other than the next normal sitting day...

Order, hon. Senators! The hon. Senator for Bungoma County is right on the issue of procedure, but he was not following the proceedings. We actually put the question on the amended Motion and no Senator was interested in making a contribution. In fact, the mood of the Floor, and from...

Yes,

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to second.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Senate Majority Leader and his colleague the Senate Minority Leader explain to the House the significance of the statement in the Procedural Motion “that the Senate shall adjourn without question put”? This means the House will not take any decision on the Motion.

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, that point of order cannot be duly sustained. You should have raised it when the Mover had the Floor. So, I will not carry it for now. You may wish to peruse the Standing Orders then you can appreciate so. Hon. Senators, I will now proceed to...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek your indulgence to move an amendment at this stage. As you said, being the first day, we are all in the learning process. Moreover, we have just received the Order Papers as we walked in here. Therefore, we did not have time to...

Proceed, since we allowed the Senator for Busia!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am raising this point of order mainly because the amendment being moved is in contradiction of the Standing Orders. If you look at Standing Order No.28 (3) , it is fairly very clear that such amendments cannot be moved without the...

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, do you have anything to add?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am in the process of acquainting myself with these Standing Orders which we only received the other day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the same, I stand to second the Motion by Sen. Khaniri. We have had, in the past, situations where for one reason or the...

go on recess on Wednesday, I think by Tuesday the following week, the money was in the accounts. So, I am strongly of the opinion that we need to amend this Motion, so that the Senate does take a decision whether or not to adjourn.

PROCEDURAL MOTION LIMITATION OF DEBATE ON PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : He is perfectly in order because the Chair has granted him an opportunity to move his amendment. He is moving it by trying to explain some of the issues that arose from the Debate. (Sen.(Dr.) Machage interjected)

Sen. Wetangula) : In terms of procedure, you should move the amendment first. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my learned junior who is the Senate Majority Leader and whom I have a lot of regard for--- I did not allude; I stated and I can state again. But I said we should...

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The Chair had started appreciating the excellent working relationship between the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader until just now. And since both of them call themselves learned friends and they are, I am sure they are also aware that that question has been determined by the Supreme...

Let me just explain so that we do not keep repeating the same thing. You need to appreciate that Standing Order No.24 (5) talks of whenever the President delivers an Address, a Senator may, as soon as practically thereafter”. Now that Senator happened to have been the Majority Leader this...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was correct and all other people who opposed my proposal got it all wrong. I was very much conversant with that Standing Order and that is why I actually agree with the Motion in so far as it says the Mover in moving and replying shall...

He is perfectly in order because the Chair has granted him an opportunity to move his amendment. He is moving it by trying to explain some of the issues that arose from the Debate. (Sen.(Dr.) Machage interjected)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. (Dr.) Machage needs to read it very carefully.

In terms of procedure, you should move the amendment first.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment is that we should put a full stop after the words “in either case” in line four. You will say; “Where the Mover is not a Senate Majority Leader or the Senate Minority Leader, they shall be limited to twenty minutes each.” That, I think...

Sen. Amos Wako, I am sure that you do not want the Senator for Siaya and the Chair to withdraw the kind words they had put in for you. So, you need to do it properly. Move your amendment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that you put a full stop under after the words; “in either case” in line four.

Read the Motion as amended.

April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

“THAT, pursuant to Standing Order No.98(1), the Senate resolves that the debate on the Motion on the Presidential Address shall be limited to a maximum of three sitting days with not more than fifteen minutes for each Senator Speaking excluding the Mover in moving and replying who shall be limited...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect to hon. Amos Wako whom I highly regard for his eloquence and competence, I feel that that completely changes the concept. You cannot put a full stop and proceed to use the word “and”. The way he read it will completely change it. Our...

Mr. Speaker, Sir let me try to assist.

Are you seconding Sen. Wako?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not seconding. If we accept that the amended Motion is on the Floor, then I can contribute.

The amended Motion is not on the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe I could say what I wanted to say in assistance to the House in the way I am seeing the confusion coming. If we end at “either case” and put a full stop, we will have cured this problem. We are forcing the Majority Leader and...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we are verbalizing and contributing - because there is no Motion that has been proposed. We are just verbalizing our opinion on this. For the very reasons that were advanced by the hon. Senator for Mombasa, the Senator for Busia is absolutely right. I think it...

However, because they represent parties which are very important tools in the processing of the business of this House, they may very well want to speak on the Motion.So, if this amendment is predicated, to some extent, from what the able Senator from Mombasa advanced, then what the former Attorney-General,...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there is conflict here in the sense that tradition is conflicting with the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders are silent on the issues of Majority or the Minority Leader in the House. Since we are following the Standing Orders, since it remains silent on the...

Not all the time!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this will not happen all the time. Since it remains silent, we should allow it to pass. It would double the number of speeches if we used the word “Majority”. We should follow it the way it is stated here.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have two things. First, as hon. Senators are arguing on this matters, I think 90 per cent of us are already confused about what we are debating. This is because an amendment has been moved or may be it has not been moved. We are not...

Order, hon. Senators. I have been agonizing, just like you, on how to proceed and save the Members from torture. First, let me clarify that the Chair did not propose the Motion as amended because up to now, the Motion has not been seconded. The closest it came to secondment...

The debate has brought out issues that have enriched my own understanding. First, I cannot question that wisdom now because it is in the Standing Orders – the Majority Leader who is expected to be the one doing it as the Majority Leader in terms of proposing such a Motion...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I move the Motion as read by the Speaker. That was my intention from the very beginning. I am glad the entire Senate now agrees with me. This is very important and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for bringing us together.

Seconder?

I second and say that I want to thank the Speaker for helping the House because we were becoming confused. (Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)

Order, hon. Members! I am sure you have seen the Supplementary Order Paper. It is a product of the Rules and Business Committee. So, from this stage, we shall use the Supplementary Order Paper. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I would urge you to look at and raise your point of order...

Hon. Senators, you have been invited to participate in an induction workshop from 18th to 20th April, 2013 at Simba Lodge Naivasha. This event has been organized by the Senate in collaboration with the Parliamentary Strengthening programme implemented by the State University of New York (SUNY) Kenya. The purpose of...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :in matters of governance of those County Assemblies. Because of that, the speeches that will be made by the many of us who may attend will give direction to those governments on the way we would wish to see them go and also to remind...

Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say the following. Although there has been no justification either by the Leader of the Majority Party or the Leader of the Minority Party why this Procedural Motion is being moved, it is self-evident. However, as a matter of fact, we...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say the following. Although there has been no justification either by the Leader of the Majority Party or the Leader of the Minority Party why this Procedural Motion is being moved, it is self-evident. However, as a matter of fact, we need to state...

Sen. Orengo, I thought that the Motion being procedural and people being clear on its contents, they found it unnecessary to explain the same thing.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, as I congratulate all of us for being here, I am particularly disappointed by the Leader of the Minority Party, Sen. Wetangula. He should have used this opportunity to teach the Leader of the Majority Party that this is not just about reading a Motion to...

Senate Majority Leader! Senator Kindiki, I hope you have heard contributions from Senators and this is the opportunity to do the needful.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is Sen. Kajwang from Homa Bay. We heard the speech from the President yesterday. It was a good, eloquent made and covers many areas from governance, education---

Order, Sen. Kajwang! On which Motion are you?

I am on a point of order.

Okay. April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Sen. Wetangula) :

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES LIMITATION OF DEBATE ON MOTIONS FOR ADJOURNMENT OF THE SENATE

Sen. Wetangula) :Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you look at the HANSARD, there is definitely something that the Chair skipped. I was following the debate.

Order, hon. Senators! The hon. Senator for Bungoma County is right on the issue of procedure, but he was not following the proceedings. We actually put the question on the amended Motion and no Senator was interested in making a contribution. In fact, the mood of the Floor, and from...

Yes,

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to second.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Senate Majority Leader and his colleague the Senate Minority Leader explain to the House the significance of the statement in the Procedural Motion “that the Senate shall adjourn without question put”? This means the House will not take any decision on the Motion.

Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, that point of order cannot be duly sustained. You should have raised it when the Mover had the Floor. So, I will not carry it for now. You may wish to peruse the Standing Orders then you can appreciate so. Hon. Senators, I will now proceed to...

Hon. Senators, let us allow some debate. Yes, Sen. Khaniri!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek your indulgence to move an amendment at this stage. As you said, being the first day, we are all in the learning process. Moreover, we have just received the Order Papers as we walked in here. Therefore, we did not have time to...

Proceed, since we allowed the Senator for Busia!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am raising this point of order mainly because the amendment being moved is in contradiction of the Standing Orders. If you look at Standing Order No.28 (3) , it is fairly very clear that such amendments cannot be moved without the...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) :name of the Majority Leader as the Mover and so that is why the confusion is coming up on this particular day. For purposes of the Standing Orders, they have made it elaborate so that those other scenarios that Senators have been demonstrating are actually...

Sen. Wetangula) : In terms of procedure, you should move the amendment first. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my learned junior who is the Senate Majority Leader and whom I have a lot of regard for--- I did not allude; I stated and I can state again. But I said we should...

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

The Chair had started appreciating the excellent working relationship between the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader until just now. And since both of them call themselves learned friends and they are, I am sure they are also aware that that question has been determined by the Supreme...

Let me just explain so that we do not keep repeating the same thing. You need to appreciate that Standing Order No.24 (5) talks of whenever the President delivers an Address, a Senator may, as soon as practically thereafter”. Now that Senator happened to have been the Majority Leader this...

name of the Majority Leader as the Mover and so that is why the confusion is coming up on this particular day. For purposes of the Standing Orders, they have made it elaborate so that those other scenarios that Senators have been demonstrating are actually factored. So, we can only...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was correct and all other people who opposed my proposal got it all wrong. I was very much conversant with that Standing Order and that is why I actually agree with the Motion in so far as it says the Mover in moving and replying shall...

He is perfectly in order because the Chair has granted him an opportunity to move his amendment. He is moving it by trying to explain some of the issues that arose from the Debate. (Sen.(Dr.) Machage interjected)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. (Dr.) Machage needs to read it very carefully.

In terms of procedure, you should move the amendment first.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my amendment is that we should put a full stop after the words “in either case” in line four. You will say; “Where the Mover is not a Senate Majority Leader or the Senate Minority Leader, they shall be limited to twenty minutes each.” That, I think...

Sen. Amos Wako, I am sure that you do not want the Senator for Siaya and the Chair to withdraw the kind words they had put in for you. So, you need to do it properly. Move your amendment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that you put a full stop under after the words; “in either case” in line four.

Read the Motion as amended.

April 17, 2013 SENATE DEBATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect to hon. Amos Wako whom I highly regard for his eloquence and competence, I feel that that completely changes the concept. You cannot put a full stop and proceed to use the word “and”. The way he read it will completely change it. Our...

Mr. Speaker, Sir let me try to assist.

Are you seconding Sen. Wako?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not seconding. If we accept that the amended Motion is on the Floor, then I can contribute.

The amended Motion is not on the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, maybe I could say what I wanted to say in assistance to the House in the way I am seeing the confusion coming. If we end at “either case” and put a full stop, we will have cured this problem. We are forcing the Majority Leader and...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we are verbalizing and contributing - because there is no Motion that has been proposed. We are just verbalizing our opinion on this. For the very reasons that were advanced by the hon. Senator for Mombasa, the Senator for Busia is absolutely right. I think it...

the Senate Minority Leader being mentioned in cognizance of the objective situation because I cannot foresee a situation where there could be another Mover other than the Majority Leader. If the Majority Leader has acceded to another person in his party to move that Motion, then he would have to...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there is conflict here in the sense that tradition is conflicting with the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders are silent on the issues of Majority or the Minority Leader in the House. Since we are following the Standing Orders, since it remains silent on the...

Not all the time!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this will not happen all the time. Since it remains silent, we should allow it to pass. It would double the number of speeches if we used the word “Majority”. We should follow it the way it is stated here.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have two things. First, as hon. Senators are arguing on this matters, I think 90 per cent of us are already confused about what we are debating. This is because an amendment has been moved or may be it has not been moved. We are not...

Order, hon. Senators. I have been agonizing, just like you, on how to proceed and save the Members from torture. First, let me clarify that the Chair did not propose the Motion as amended because up to now, the Motion has not been seconded. The closest it came to secondment...

because it is on the Presidential Address, gives an opportunity to the key people in the House; the Majority Leader and the Minority Leader to have their say.Hon. Senators, since I have been requested, although it is not my job, I will attempt.THAT, after the word “case” where we have...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I move the Motion as read by the Speaker. That was my intention from the very beginning. I am glad the entire Senate now agrees with me. This is very important and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for bringing us together.

Seconder?

I second and say that I want to thank the Speaker for helping the House because we were becoming confused. (Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out put and agreed to) (Question, that the words to be inserted in place thereof...

put and agreed to) Resolved accordingly:-THAT, pursuant to Standing Order No.98(1), the Senate resolves that the debate on the Motion on the Presidential Address shall be limited to a maximum of three sitting days with not more than fifteen minutes for each Senator speaking, excluding the Mover in moving and...

Order, hon. Members! I am sure you have seen the Supplementary Order Paper. It is a product of the Rules and Business Committee. So, from this stage, we shall use the Supplementary Order Paper. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I would urge you to look at and raise your point of order...

Sen. Wetangula) : Sen. Wetangula) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion specifically because if you read Article 6 of the Constitution, it is very clear that counties are the second level of Government and, therefore, we have 48 governments in this country. In Article 96, it...

Governor Machage! My apologies. Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Machage!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I strongly also support the views of Sen. Haji. Accepting this Motion as it is would put some of the Senators in this House in bad repute in their areas of jurisdiction and especially so where the news media and every Kenyan will know that the Senate...

I do not know what to make of that particular amendment procedurally. He first spoke and then suggested an amendment. Since we have been learning, I am happy to entertain it, but just to caution that I know Sen. (Dr.) Machage has good standing with respect to these particular Standing...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I second the proposed amendment.

Sen. Haji, you can only speak after the amendment has been proposed. So, we need a Seconder because you had already contributed to the Motion. When you move an amendment, it is like a contribution to the original Motion until the amendment itself has been proposed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to second the proposed amendment. (Question of the amendment proposed)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to support the amended version because, really, it is clearly in accordance with Standing Order No.239 which tells you that you may address any County Assembly where you are a registered voter. So, the amendment by the Senator is making our Motion be confluent with...

Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, I want to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for reminding us that, actually, we have as a matter of duty the right to address our County Assemblies because it says that we may. But I have not seen the rules of the County Assemblies themselves. I hope...

you have a role to look at how he manages his affairs, especially financial affairs. If that is not made clear, you might find that Senators might go to their County Governments and be ignored. It would be terrible that a Senator would come here and move a Motion to...

For the benefit of the entire Membership, even if you spoke to the original Motion, now you have an opportunity; you can still contribute to the amended Motion.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion specifically because if you read Article 6 of the Constitution, it is very clear that counties are the second level of Government and, therefore, we have 48 governments in this country. In Article 96, it talks about our responsibility to be...